VOIP Providers...

[Rob Connolly]

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Hash: SHA1

Hi Everyone,

I'm looking into ditching the home phone line within the next couple of
months. I've found some promising 'naked' DSL connection plans from
Vodafone and Orcon, but I was wondering about VOIP providers.

I don't really want to run and maintain my own asterisk server, so
that's pretty much out. I'd like to have the following features:

1. Local (09) virtual number for people with real phones.
2. Cheap/free calls to those with VOIP accounts on other services. All
round I'd obviously like calling to be as cheap as possible.
3. Must use SIP so that I can use my Android handset as a termination point.

I'm aware that I can connect a standard analogue phone to most SIP
services using an adaptor such as
http://nicegear.co.nz/analog-telephone-adaptors/linksys-pap2t/ so that
will be the another termination point. I'll obviously make use of a
desktop client too.

What providers are people using? Is there anything I haven't thought of?
Are there any privacy issues I should consider?

Thanks in advance,

Rob Connolly
- --
Ubi dubium ibi libertas
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[Andy Hamberger]

Post by Rob Connolly
I'm looking into ditching the home phone line within the next couple of
months. I've found some promising 'naked' DSL connection plans from
Vodafone and Orcon, but I was wondering about VOIP providers.
I don't really want to run and maintain my own asterisk server, so
1. Local (09) virtual number for people with real phones.
2. Cheap/free calls to those with VOIP accounts on other services. All
round I'd obviously like calling to be as cheap as possible.
3. Must use SIP so that I can use my Android handset as a termination point.

I am using http://www.2talk.co.nz/ for a local number and I got myself a
Siemens Gigaset A 580IP and it can handle several handsets and up to 6
different SIP accounts. That way I have local phone numbers in a few
countries and get very cheap calls in every country I need to call to. And
my family there can call a local number which is a great plus.

Andreas
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[Dave Lane]

Hi

Post by Rob Connolly
Hi Everyone,
I'm looking into ditching the home phone line within the next couple of
months. I've found some promising 'naked' DSL connection plans from
Vodafone and Orcon, but I was wondering about VOIP providers.

We can recommend it (ditching the telcos, that is).

Post by Rob Connolly
I don't really want to run and maintain my own asterisk server, so
1. Local (09) virtual number for people with real phones.
2. Cheap/free calls to those with VOIP accounts on other services. All
round I'd obviously like calling to be as cheap as possible.
3. Must use SIP so that I can use my Android handset as a termination point.

We're using 2talk (http://2talk.co.nz) which, assuming things work well,
is an amazingly powerful service. When things don't work so well, it's a
bit hit or miss. (Disclosure - we do now resell 2talk services in
combination with Asterisk PABX implementations, based on our own
experience with them, as customers)

Post by Rob Connolly
I'm aware that I can connect a standard analogue phone to most SIP
services using an adaptor such as
http://nicegear.co.nz/analog-telephone-adaptors/linksys-pap2t/ so that
will be the another termination point. I'll obviously make use of a
desktop client too.

Until we got locked out of our building in the CBD by the quake, we had
a lovely set of Snom300s from NiceGear. Hads now has some even nicer
models (not all from Snom).

Post by Rob Connolly
What providers are people using? Is there anything I haven't thought of?
Are there any privacy issues I should consider?

We've found it to be
a) a huge cost savings (like reductions of 75%+ from our previous
monthly bills, but with greater services),
b) much more freedom in tailoring our system to our requirements - an
Asterisk PABX + 2talk means pretty unlimited flexibility
c) it's much more compatible with the FOSS way of doing things,
self-reliance, and that sort of thing.

Cheers,

Dave
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[Hadley Rich]

Post by Rob Connolly
What providers are people using?

We've used 2Talk for around 3 years or so for all our home and office
calling. It's been really good with no major issues.

The fit 1 2 and 3 of your requirements. Though only have free calling
between other 2Talk numbers that I'm aware of.

Post by Rob Connolly
Is there anything I haven't thought of?Are there any privacy issues I
should consider?

Unfortunately no providers that I'm aware of support encrypted RTP which
means that the voice stream could be sniffed and rebuilt by someone in
the right position on the network. Of course if they are in the right
position then they can sniff all sort of other interesting traffic too.

hads

[Rob Connolly]

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Post by Hadley Rich

Post by Rob Connolly
What providers are people using?

We've used 2Talk for around 3 years or so for all our home and office
calling. It's been really good with no major issues.
The fit 1 2 and 3 of your requirements. Though only have free calling
between other 2Talk numbers that I'm aware of.

2Talk look pretty good. I'm still open to suggestions - choice is good ;-)

Post by Hadley Rich

Post by Rob Connolly
Is there anything I haven't thought of?Are there any privacy issues I
should consider?

Unfortunately no providers that I'm aware of support encrypted RTP which
means that the voice stream could be sniffed and rebuilt by someone in
the right position on the network. Of course if they are in the right
position then they can sniff all sort of other interesting traffic too.

My understanding is that once the connection is established SIP is a
peer-to-peer system, so surely any provider only has access to the
original connection negotiation? I guess how secure that is depends on
when/how keys are exchanged.

Cheers,

Rob
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[Hadley Rich]

Post by Rob Connolly
2Talk look pretty good. I'm still open to suggestions - choice is good ;-)

There's only really Worldxchange as an alternative at the moment I
believe. They apparently have a good solid platform but not quite as
many features as 2Talk.

Post by Rob Connolly
My understanding is that once the connection is established SIP is a
peer-to-peer system, so surely any provider only has access to the
original connection negotiation? I guess how secure that is depends on
when/how keys are exchanged.

Yes and no. With SIP you can either have media (RTP) go through a proxy
server or direct from point to point. With a provider (2Talk,
Worldxchange, etc.) the media will go always through them. If it didn't
you would have loads of issues with the media being blocked by firewalls
etc.

There's no key exchange because there's no security involved.

hads

[Jim Cheetham]

Post by Hadley Rich

Post by Rob Connolly
2Talk look pretty good. I'm still open to suggestions - choice is good ;-)

There's only really Worldxchange as an alternative at the moment I
believe. They apparently have a good solid platform but not quite as
many features as 2Talk.

VentureVoip don't look like a retail outfit, but they do provide
end-user numbers, I'm using a couple.

-jim

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[Adrian Merrall]

Rob,

I'm looking into ditching the home phone line within the next couple of

Post by Rob Connolly
months. I've found some promising 'naked' DSL connection plans from
Vodafone and Orcon, but I was wondering about VOIP providers.
I don't really want to run and maintain my own asterisk server, so
1. Local (09) virtual number for people with real phones.

Where in Auckland are you? I have a VOIP service at home through Wired
Country but I think they are only south (not 100% sure though)

Cheers,

Adrian
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[Rob Connolly]

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Hash: SHA1

Post by Adrian Merrall
Where in Auckland are you? I have a VOIP service at home through Wired
Country but I think they are only south (not 100% sure though)

By the time I am setting this up I will be located in Pakuranga, or
surrounding area.

Cheers,

Rob
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[Volker Kuhlmann]

Post by Rob Connolly
I'm looking into ditching the home phone line within the next couple of
months.

Just hope there isn't an earthquake and the power goes off forever,
because then you're at the receiving end of Telecom's public call for
donations of analog phones for those suckers who thought earthquakes
happen only in Haiti...

Volker

[Jim Cheetham]

On Thu, Mar 10, 2011 at 11:58 PM, Volker Kuhlmann

Post by Volker Kuhlmann
Just hope there isn't an earthquake and the power goes off forever,
because then you're at the receiving end of Telecom's public call for
donations of analog phones for those suckers who thought earthquakes
happen only in Haiti...

I'm sure I remember Telecom saying that they are going to stop
providing copper+power sometime in the next few years, and therefore
everyone will have to provide their own power (i.e. 'simple' landline
phones won't work any more).

But my Google-fu is failing this morning, and I can't find a reference ...

-jim

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[Rob Connolly]

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Post by Jim Cheetham
On Thu, Mar 10, 2011 at 11:58 PM, Volker Kuhlmann

Post by Volker Kuhlmann
Just hope there isn't an earthquake and the power goes off forever,
because then you're at the receiving end of Telecom's public call for
donations of analog phones for those suckers who thought earthquakes
happen only in Haiti...

I'm sure I remember Telecom saying that they are going to stop
providing copper+power sometime in the next few years, and therefore
everyone will have to provide their own power (i.e. 'simple' landline
phones won't work any more).
But my Google-fu is failing this morning, and I can't find a reference ...

I don't know what the situation in Christchurch is like, but my gut
feeling tells me that landlines are going to be one of the first things
to go down in an earthquake/other disaster - the cables are under the
ground, right?

Cheers,

Rob
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[Nick Rout]

Post by Rob Connolly
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Post by Jim Cheetham
On Thu, Mar 10, 2011 at 11:58 PM, Volker Kuhlmann

Post by Volker Kuhlmann
Just hope there isn't an earthquake and the power goes off forever,
because then you're at the receiving end of Telecom's public call for
donations of analog phones for those suckers who thought earthquakes
happen only in Haiti...

I'm sure I remember Telecom saying that they are going to stop
providing copper+power sometime in the next few years, and therefore
everyone will have to provide their own power (i.e. 'simple' landline
phones won't work any more).
But my Google-fu is failing this morning, and I can't find a reference

...
I don't know what the situation in Christchurch is like, but my gut
feeling tells me that landlines are going to be one of the first things
to go down in an earthquake/other disaster - the cables are under the
ground, right?

It depends on your locality. Some are overhead, as are some power cables.

cell performed remarkably well after the 22/2 quake. Taking into account
inevitable congestion and the tripping of most of the city's power
(including power to cell sites) the performance was good, albeit not
perfect. we did manage to have a text or voice message from each family
member within, perhaps, 1 hour of the main event, most much quicker than
that.
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[Ryan McCoskrie]

Post by Rob Connolly

Post by Jim Cheetham
On Thu, Mar 10, 2011 at 11:58 PM, Volker Kuhlmann

Post by Volker Kuhlmann
Just hope there isn't an earthquake and the power goes off forever,
because then you're at the receiving end of Telecom's public call for
donations of analog phones for those suckers who thought earthquakes
happen only in Haiti...

I'm sure I remember Telecom saying that they are going to stop
providing copper+power sometime in the next few years, and therefore
everyone will have to provide their own power (i.e. 'simple' landline
phones won't work any more).
But my Google-fu is failing this morning, and I can't find a reference ...

I don't know what the situation in Christchurch is like, but my gut
feeling tells me that landlines are going to be one of the first things
to go down in an earthquake/other disaster - the cables are under the
ground, right?

I've been avoiding going into town but from everything I have heard they were
the only service that was still usable for many people.

[yuri]

Post by Rob Connolly

Post by Jim Cheetham
I'm sure I remember Telecom saying that they are going to stop
providing copper+power sometime in the next few years, and therefore
everyone will have to provide their own power (i.e. 'simple' landline
phones won't work any more).
But my Google-fu is failing this morning, and I can't find a reference ...

I don't know what the situation in Christchurch is like, but my gut
feeling tells me that landlines are going to be one of the first things
to go down in an earthquake/other disaster - the cables are under the
ground, right?

I am one of the technicians driving around in a Chorus van.
Many of the underground cables are severely damaged, but most are not.

Overhead cables have had to be re-attached when poles have swayed away
from houses, snapping the wires.

Analog phone lines were still working in many places where mains power
was not, immediately after the main quake.

As for stopping copper+power, this will only happen when analog POTS
lines are no longer available. ie naked DSL or fibre to the home, with
a VOIP box in your house. The ATA in the VOIP box will still power an
old POTS phone, so you'll only need an UPS for that box.

As long as there is POTS, however, any POTS CPE can still draw power
from the network. Otherwise it wouldn't be POTS by definition.

As for when POTS will be turned off, this has been imminent for years,
just like Duke Nuke'em Forever.

Yuri

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[cr]

Post by Rob Connolly

Post by Jim Cheetham
On Thu, Mar 10, 2011 at 11:58 PM, Volker Kuhlmann

Post by Volker Kuhlmann
Just hope there isn't an earthquake and the power goes off forever,
because then you're at the receiving end of Telecom's public call for
donations of analog phones for those suckers who thought earthquakes
happen only in Haiti...

I'm sure I remember Telecom saying that they are going to stop
providing copper+power sometime in the next few years, and therefore
everyone will have to provide their own power (i.e. 'simple' landline
phones won't work any more).
But my Google-fu is failing this morning, and I can't find a reference ...

I don't know what the situation in Christchurch is like, but my gut
feeling tells me that landlines are going to be one of the first things
to go down in an earthquake/other disaster - the cables are under the
ground, right?
Cheers,
Rob

Well, actually, if they're underground in Chch, aren't they more likely to go
*up*?

Sorry 'bout that chief

Good point that was raised though. We have one non-cordless phone that I
keep just for use if there's a power cut. I suppose current drain on
electronic devices is getting low enough that battery-powered phones would be
quite practical (as in, don't flatten their batteries after a few minutes
use). If anyone could be bothered manufacturing them, that is.

cr

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[Bruce Kingsbury]

I have a ADSL modem, wireless router and VoIP adapter that all run on
12v dc specifically so that at some point I could have them all
running off a sealed lead acid battery on trickle charge, without the
very large power loss of using an inverter or UPS.

I never quite got to the next part of wiring up the battery but the
theory is good.

Post by cr

Post by Rob Connolly

Post by Jim Cheetham
On Thu, Mar 10, 2011 at 11:58 PM, Volker Kuhlmann

Post by Volker Kuhlmann
Just hope there isn't an earthquake and the power goes off forever,
because then you're at the receiving end of Telecom's public call for
donations of analog phones for those suckers who thought earthquakes
happen only in Haiti...

I'm sure I remember Telecom saying that they are going to stop
providing copper+power sometime in the next few years, and therefore
everyone will have to provide their own power (i.e. 'simple' landline
phones won't work any more).
But my Google-fu is failing this morning, and I can't find a reference ...

I don't know what the situation in Christchurch is like, but my gut
feeling tells me that landlines are going to be one of the first things
to go down in an earthquake/other disaster - the cables are under the
ground, right?
Cheers,
Rob

Well, actually, if they're underground in Chch, aren't they more likely to go
*up*?
Sorry 'bout that chief
Good point that was raised though.   We have one non-cordless phone that I
keep just for use if there's a power cut.   I suppose current drain on
electronic devices is getting low enough that battery-powered phones would be
quite practical (as in, don't flatten their batteries after a few minutes
use).   If anyone could be bothered manufacturing them, that is.
cr
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[cr]

Post by Bruce Kingsbury
I have a ADSL modem, wireless router and VoIP adapter that all run on
12v dc specifically so that at some point I could have them all
running off a sealed lead acid battery on trickle charge, without the
very large power loss of using an inverter or UPS.
I never quite got to the next part of wiring up the battery but the
theory is good.

I guess your car battery would do duty for quite a while in an emergency.

Post by Bruce Kingsbury
   1. I am by definition, "the intended recipient"
   2. All information in the email is mine to do with as I see fit and
make such financial profit, political mileage, or good joke as it
lends itself to.
   3. I may take the contents as representing the views of your company..
   4. This overrides any disclaimer or statement of confidentiality
that may be included on your message.

Love it! Can I steal it? :)

I've always thought those legalistic imprecations that corporations mindlessly
put at the bottom of emails were pure bluff and BS. Especially when they
get sent to a mailing list or, even better, end up on the bottom of a press
release (as one did about Newmarket Viaduct demolition this morning).

At the risk of reawakening the bush lawyers, I've often wondered how a company
would fare in court if they tried invoking those threats - would the court
take the view that if they're stupid / incompetent enough to tell me their
secrets, without my prior agreement, why should I be obligated to keep their
secret for them?

cr

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[Bruce Kingsbury]

The aim was only to get through a 1-hour outage at most, but then if I
needed longer I guess I can run a cable out to the car and if that
runs low I just run the engine long enough to top it up again.

Past experience it should last a long time. Back in about 1999 we had
a transformer replaced on our street which was routine work that ended
up leaving us without power for 12 hours. The regular car battery
running my 486 and two dialup modems (A BBS system) on a UPS lasted 8
hours. I'm sure my ADSL modem and VoIP box draw a small fraction of
what my old 486 used.

Totally steal the sig btw; I already did (I should probably give
credit to the original author but if you google the text I'm sure you
could find them to thank ;)

Post by cr

Post by Bruce Kingsbury
I have a ADSL modem, wireless router and VoIP adapter that all run on
12v dc specifically so that at some point I could have them all
running off a sealed lead acid battery on trickle charge, without the
very large power loss of using an inverter or UPS.
I never quite got to the next part of wiring up the battery but the
theory is good.

I guess your car battery would do duty for quite a while in an emergency.

Post by Bruce Kingsbury
   1. I am by definition, "the intended recipient"
   2. All information in the email is mine to do with as I see fit and
make such financial profit, political mileage, or good joke as it
lends itself to.
   3. I may take the contents as representing the views of your company..
   4. This overrides any disclaimer or statement of confidentiality
that may be included on your message.

Love it!    Can I steal it?  :)
I've always thought those legalistic imprecations that corporations mindlessly
put at the bottom of emails were pure bluff and BS.   Especially when they
get sent to a mailing list or, even better, end up on the bottom of a press
release  (as one did about Newmarket Viaduct demolition this morning).
At the risk of reawakening the bush lawyers, I've often wondered how a company
would fare in court if they tried invoking those threats - would the court
take the view that if they're stupid / incompetent enough to tell me their
secrets, without my prior agreement, why should I be obligated to keep their
secret for them?
cr
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Disclaimer:
By sending an email to any of my addresses you are agreeing that:
   1. I am by definition, "the intended recipient"
   2. All information in the email is mine to do with as I see fit and
make such financial profit, political mileage, or good joke as it
lends itself to.
   3. I may take the contents as representing the views of your company.
   4. This overrides any disclaimer or statement of confidentiality
that may be included on your message.

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[Volker Kuhlmann]

Post by Rob Connolly
I don't know what the situation in Christchurch is like, but my gut
feeling tells me that landlines are going to be one of the first things
to go down in an earthquake/other disaster

Your gut feeling is not reliable.

You have no power for a week. Guess what's still working:

a) Your mobile battery (ROTFL...)
b) Your POTS phone

and that's precisely why Telecom ran a national public appeal for people
to donate their old POTS phones.

Granted there will be some damaged phone lines, but not for half the
city, which is (or thereabouts) what recent statistics are. Or look at
it the other way round: If you have power and no POTS you have options,
the other way round and you only have gizmo phones you're stuffed.

Volker

[Bruce Clement]

Post by Rob Connolly
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Post by Jim Cheetham
On Thu, Mar 10, 2011 at 11:58 PM, Volker Kuhlmann

Post by Volker Kuhlmann
Just hope there isn't an earthquake and the power goes off forever,
because then you're at the receiving end of Telecom's public call for
donations of analog phones for those suckers who thought earthquakes
happen only in Haiti...

[...]

Post by Rob Connolly
I don't know what the situation in Christchurch is like, but my gut
feeling tells me that landlines are going to be one of the first things
to go down in an earthquake/other disaster - the cables are under the
ground, right?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698

"More from the BBC's Mariko Oi in Tokyo, who says more than four
million households remain without electricity in northern Japan. She
says phone companies are offering free public calls because mobile
phone lines have been disrupted."

The moral of the story is that either wired or wireless (or both) can
go down. You maximise your chances by having access to both.

On the subject of Japan, this moved me:

"0419: Yukinori Mesuda, from Tokyo, writes: "We are in an historical,
deep grief. Thousands are searching for their families with no luck,
and can only pray or cry now. We will never lose hope. We shall get
back into peaceful life with unity, wisdom and love. Please be with
us."

Bruce
--
Bruce Clement

Home:    http://www.clement.co.nz/
Twitter:    http://twitter.com/Bruce_Clement
Directory: http://www.searchme.co.nz/

"Before attempting to create something new, it is vital to have a good
appreciation of everything that already exists in this field." Mikhail
Kalashnikov

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[James Paterson]

My contract with Vodafone broadband runs out this month (=$15 more a
month) and after the ruling comes out on mobile termination rates I will
be looking to find the cheapest solution to my Data, phone and mobile needs.
My girlfriend likes to call her sister by mobile and her daughter in
Dunedin but little else. My own mobile and toll calls are negligible.

My home alarm is directly wired into the phone line so I am not sure if
there would be a naked DSL solution suitable for that. ($5 pw for
monitoring. Call out charges only if someone comes - not if you ring
and give your password and say the alarm call was accidentally triggered
or a test)

I am open to suggestions as to the various possibilities.

Also providers are welcome to contact me on or off post.

best James Paterson

Post by Rob Connolly
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Hash: SHA1
Hi Everyone,
I'm looking into ditching the home phone line within the next couple of
months. I've found some promising 'naked' DSL connection plans from
Vodafone and Orcon, but I was wondering about VOIP providers.
I don't really want to run and maintain my own asterisk server, so
1. Local (09) virtual number for people with real phones.
2. Cheap/free calls to those with VOIP accounts on other services. All
round I'd obviously like calling to be as cheap as possible.
3. Must use SIP so that I can use my Android handset as a termination point.
I'm aware that I can connect a standard analogue phone to most SIP
services using an adaptor such as
http://nicegear.co.nz/analog-telephone-adaptors/linksys-pap2t/ so that
will be the another termination point. I'll obviously make use of a
desktop client too.
What providers are people using? Is there anything I haven't thought of?
Are there any privacy issues I should consider?
Thanks in advance,
Rob Connolly
- --
Ubi dubium ibi libertas
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[yuri]

Post by James Paterson
My home alarm is directly wired into the phone line so I am not sure if
there would be a naked DSL solution suitable for that.

Three options:

1) An alarm capable of IP monitoring.
2) Connect the alarm to an ATA.
3) Add a GSM module to your alarm.

Possible show stoppers:
1a) You would have to change your alarm panel or add an IP module.
1b) Your alarm company may not support IP monitoring.

2) Your VoIP connection may not be good at handling your alarm's modem.
If your VoIP provider says "not suitable for faxes" then it's not
suitable for the alarm either.

3a) Your alarm may not have that option.
3b) You would need to keep the SIM card in credit.

Advantage of 3 is that it works during a power outage (until the alarm
battery runs out).

Hope this helps.
Yuri

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[James Paterson]

Post by yuri

Post by James Paterson
My home alarm is directly wired into the phone line so I am not sure if
there would be a naked DSL solution suitable for that.

1) An alarm capable of IP monitoring.
2) Connect the alarm to an ATA.
3) Add a GSM module to your alarm.
1a) You would have to change your alarm panel or add an IP module.
1b) Your alarm company may not support IP monitoring.
2) Your VoIP connection may not be good at handling your alarm's modem.
If your VoIP provider says "not suitable for faxes" then it's not
suitable for the alarm either.
3a) Your alarm may not have that option.
3b) You would need to keep the SIM card in credit.
Advantage of 3 is that it works during a power outage (until the alarm
battery runs out).
Hope this helps.
Yuri

Thanks yuri

My installer is an old friend who is semi retired which is why a get a
good deal on the monitoring.
Not that keen to change alarms - Doubt the current one is sim card
capable but will ask him.

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