Converting from Ubuntu to Debian

[Bruce Clement]

I thought this might be of interest to the list, it's a very lightly edited
copy of my latest blog post

Ubuntu suffered a "misfortune"; I was halfway through the 11.04 upgrade when
the lights went out. When they came back on, Mr PC, he no boot no more.

I probably could have fixed it given enough time and inspiration, but my /
partition wouldn't mount despite fsck assuring me it was fine and I've been
wanting to try Debian Testing as my main desktop for a while.

Back in 2003 I ran Debian 3.0 Stable as a desktop before reverting back to
SuSE and I've used Ubuntu for the last 3 years or so, so Debian isn't
exactly a stranger to me. More recently, for the last several months I've
had a non-gui Debian Testing VirtualBox client server and Testing seems
stable enough for my purposes. The reason why I'm interested in using
Testing is to avoid the whole upgrade process and simultaneously avoid
Debian's release cycles ... For a production server their philosophy is
correct, but I really want to play with newer software.

So far I've installed the base system and added KDE to it. As I refer
synaptic, I've added in quite a bit of gnome. I'll probably be rebuilding
for a couple of nights more before restoring my home directories. Fingers
crossed that that goes smoothly.

I've had one incredibly annoying problem where my screen would flicker every
10 seconds or so and at the same rate all consoles received a message "[drm]
nouveau 0000:01:00.0: No native mode, forcing panel scaling" A bit of
Googling found me the solution to this
http://lists.debian.org/debian-x/2011/05/msg00522.html

edit /etc/default/grub

change the Linux command line to read
GRUB_CMDLINE_LINUX_DEFAULT="quiet drm_kms_helper.poll=0"

sudo update-grub2

reboot


I've also got another annoyance that "sudo kate" (or other X program) can't
access the display. I'm working around that for now by running root commands
through a terminal session that I've sshed back to localhost

ssh -X -l root localhost

Not the world's most elegant solution, but it works for now.

I suspect I'll be finding out more little annoyances as I go, but for now
I'm quite happy with how things are going

Original at
http://kiore.blogspot.com/2011/05/switching-to-debian-testing.html
--
Bruce Clement

Home: http://www.clement.co.nz/
Twitter: http://twitter.com/Bruce_Clement
Directory: http://www.searchme.co.nz/

"Before attempting to create something new, it is vital to have a good
appreciation of everything that already exists in this field." Mikhail
Kalashnikov
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[Robin Sheat]

Post by Bruce Clement
I've also got another annoyance that "sudo kate" (or other X program) can't
access the display.

What about gksudo (for gnome, there may be something like kdesudo.)

Robin.

[Nevyn]

Post by Robin Sheat

Post by Bruce Clement
I've also got another annoyance that "sudo kate" (or other X program) can't
access the display.

What about gksudo (for gnome, there may be something like kdesudo.)
Robin.

Is this a case of the DISPLAY variable not being available?
sudo DISPLAY=:0 kate

or does root not have permission to the display?
xhost

xhost is generally considered bad practise but at least you can get
some idea of what's going on by running it with no parameters. You
might be able to do:
xhost +root

Though I know this doesn't work on an Ubuntu system (although root
already has permission on a Ubuntu installation so not necessary).

xhost localhost

Might be a go - allow access to the X server from the local machine...

Regards,
Nevyn
http://nevsramblings.blogspot.com/

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[Bruce Clement]

Post by Nevyn

Post by Robin Sheat

Post by Bruce Clement
I've also got another annoyance that "sudo kate" (or other X program)

can't

Post by Robin Sheat

Post by Bruce Clement
access the display.

What about gksudo (for gnome, there may be something like kdesudo.)

Thanks Robin,

The root cause is probably a permissions thing as suggested by Nevyn, but
I've installed kdesudo and it's a usable work-around until I get around to
fixing sudo, and certainly more appealing than running ssh session to
loalhost.

Post by Nevyn
Is this a case of the DISPLAY variable not being available?
sudo DISPLAY=:0 kate

$DISPLAY is set

Post by Nevyn
or does root not have permission to the display?
xhost

Thanks Nevyn,

It's probably a permissions issue, that's my working hypothesis. I'm sure
that a bit of research will find how Ubuntu does it & hopefully that can be
used in Debian too. Now that I've got two workarounds it's on the
back-burner until after I get the user directories &c restored from backup

Regards
--
Bruce Clement

Home: http://www.clement.co.nz/
Twitter: http://twitter.com/Bruce_Clement
Directory: http://www.searchme.co.nz/

"Before attempting to create something new, it is vital to have a good
appreciation of everything that already exists in this field." Mikhail
Kalashnikov
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[Robin Sheat]

Post by Bruce Clement
$DISPLAY is set

However I bet it won't pass through sudo, which has a whitelist of variables
that are allowed.

Try adding:
Defaults env_keep += "DISPLAY"
to /etc/sudoers.

I guess that the Ubuntu sudo has been patch to make this default. If this
doesn't do it, perhaps also try adding 'XAUTHORITY' to that list (space
separated), which should allow root access to the magic cookie to talk to X
with.

Robin.

[Bruce Clement]

Post by Robin Sheat

Post by Bruce Clement
$DISPLAY is set

However I bet it won't pass through sudo, which has a whitelist of variables
that are allowed.

$DISPLAY IS set in the sudo'd shell. I checked. The error message says it
can't connect to the display, & I'm assuming it's an authorisation issue.

The next thing I'm planning to try is making sure that XAUTHORITY gets
passed through, but I have more pressing issues (restoring home directories
& patching them as needed for the software change).
--
Bruce Clement

Home: http://www.clement.co.nz/
Twitter: http://twitter.com/Bruce_Clement
Directory: http://www.searchme.co.nz/

"Before attempting to create something new, it is vital to have a good
appreciation of everything that already exists in this field." Mikhail
Kalashnikov
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[Nick Rout]

Post by Bruce Clement

Post by Robin Sheat

Post by Bruce Clement
I've also got another annoyance that "sudo kate" (or other X program)

can't

Post by Robin Sheat

Post by Bruce Clement
access the display.

What about gksudo (for gnome, there may be something like kdesudo.)

Thanks Robin,
The root cause is probably a permissions thing as suggested  by Nevyn, but
I've installed kdesudo and it's a usable work-around until I get around to
fixing sudo, and certainly more appealing than running  ssh session to
loalhost.

No, sudo is not designed to run X apps, that's why they made gksudo
and kdesudo. See in general
http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntu/graphicalsudo

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[Hadley Rich]

Post by Bruce Clement
I've also got another annoyance that "sudo kate" (or other X

program) can't access the display.
What about gksudo (for gnome, there may be something like kdesudo.)

You should certainly use these GUI programs rather than trying to run X
programs with sudo from the command line.

Running X programs with sudo can lead to having files in your home
directory owned by root.

Sometimes this is fine, sometimes it can cause things to break. Either
in inconspicuous ways, or more conspicuous ways such as not being able
to log in.

find ~ -uid 0

hads

[Bruce Clement]

Post by Hadley Rich
You should certainly use these GUI programs rather than trying to run X
programs with sudo from the command line.

cd /etc
sudo kate some-config-file

Is nice and simple and I know where my current directory is. Trying to do it
from the gui desktop / menu is likely to have the current directory set to
some hidden subdirectory.

I'd much rather deal with the simple case.
--
Bruce Clement

Home: http://www.clement.co.nz/
Twitter: http://twitter.com/Bruce_Clement
Directory: http://www.searchme.co.nz/

"Before attempting to create something new, it is vital to have a good
appreciation of everything that already exists in this field." Mikhail
Kalashnikov
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[Hadley Rich]

Post by Bruce Clement
cd /etc
sudo kate some-config-file
Is nice and simple and I know where my current directory is. Trying to
do it from the gui desktop / menu is likely to have the current
directory set to some hidden subdirectory.

Replacing sudo with kdesu in your process above isn't really that
complex.

Post by Bruce Clement
I'd much rather deal with the simple case.

That's fine, you just get to deal with the consequences too.

[Bruce Clement]

Post by Hadley Rich

Post by Bruce Clement
cd /etc
sudo kate some-config-file
Is nice and simple and I know where my current directory is. Trying to
do it from the gui desktop / menu is likely to have the current
directory set to some hidden subdirectory.

Replacing sudo with kdesu in your process above isn't really that
complex.

Yes, and thanks to Robin for suggesting it as he's given me a useful
work-around. As I said at the time "I've installed kdesudo and it's a usable
work-around until I get around to fixing sudo"

Post by Hadley Rich

Post by Bruce Clement
I'd much rather deal with the simple case.

That's fine, you just get to deal with the consequences too.

This is where I don't see that there are any more or less consequences of
running sudo vs running kdesudo. Their website
http://kde-apps.org/content/show.php?content=72106 doesn't say anything
about it being safer, just that it acts like a front-end to sudo. Nor could
I find anything about where the current directory is when running the
privileged process. Given this I can't see how using a utility where I have
control over the privileged process's working directory can be less safe,
and suspect it may even be more safe; but I have no evidence to suggest
anything but a draw.
--
Bruce Clement

Home: http://www.clement.co.nz/
Twitter: http://twitter.com/Bruce_Clement
Directory: http://www.searchme.co.nz/

"Before attempting to create something new, it is vital to have a good
appreciation of everything that already exists in this field." Mikhail
Kalashnikov
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[Cliff Pratt]

Post by Hadley Rich

Post by Bruce Clement
cd /etc
sudo kate some-config-file
Is nice and simple and I know where my current directory is. Trying to
do it from the gui desktop / menu is likely to have the current
directory set to some hidden subdirectory.

Replacing sudo with kdesu in your process above isn't really that
complex.

Post by Bruce Clement
I'd much rather deal with the simple case.

That's fine, you just get to deal with the consequences too.

What consequences?

Cheers,

Cliff

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[Martin D Kealey]

Post by Bruce Clement
cd /etc

Ugh, no! You *really* don't want random files appearing in /etc; that's just
asking for trouble.

And it probably won't solve the more likely problem: The typical "write a
random file here" is actually "write a config file in my home dir", so it's
more important to change $HOME than the current dir.

Use this:
cd /
sudo -H ...

-Martin

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[Bruce Clement]

Post by Martin D Kealey

Post by Bruce Clement
cd /etc

Ugh, no! You *really* don't want random files appearing in /etc; that's just
asking for trouble.

Sorry, is it sudo that creates random files or is it kate that does so?

I've been using the "sudo kate" method with Ubuntu for 3 years and haven't
noticed them. Although I'll admit that sudo vi is a more common command for
me and is likely to leave an unwelcome visitor if vi crashes with unsaved
changes. I know to look for them.

Post by Martin D Kealey
And it probably won't solve the more likely problem: The typical "write a
random file here" is actually "write a config file in my home dir", so it's
more important to change $HOME than the current dir.
cd /
sudo -H ...

I haven't noticed this one either. Do you know under which circumstances
kate writes files to the wrong directories?
--
Bruce Clement

Home: http://www.clement.co.nz/
Twitter: http://twitter.com/Bruce_Clement
Directory: http://www.searchme.co.nz/

"Before attempting to create something new, it is vital to have a good
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Kalashnikov
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[Graeme Woollett]

Post by Bruce Clement
partition wouldn't mount despite fsck assuring me it was fine and I've been
wanting to try Debian Testing as my main desktop for a while.
Back in 2003 I ran Debian 3.0 Stable as a desktop before reverting back to
SuSE and I've used Ubuntu for the last 3 years or so, so Debian isn't
exactly a stranger to me. More recently, for the last several months I've
had a non-gui Debian Testing VirtualBox client server and Testing seems
stable enough for my purposes. The reason why I'm interested in using
Testing is to avoid the whole upgrade process and simultaneously avoid
Debian's release cycles ... For a production server their philosophy is
correct, but I really want to play with newer software.

I used to run Debian and Mythtv sometime back, this _new_ software had
me straddled between testing and unstable.

I'd every so often end up with a broken system and have to start again.
To the best of my knowledge Debian testing is a moving target and being
beta could well give you a broken system at some stage in the constant
cycle of updates.

IMHO you would be better off sticking to the LTS releases of UBuntu,
wait a few months after a new release before going from one release to
another.
I used to use the minor releases of UBuntu, the constant niggles after
upgrading I don't miss. ;-)

--
Graeme Woollett




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[Bruce Clement]

Post by Graeme Woollett

Post by Bruce Clement
Back in 2003 I ran Debian 3.0 Stable as a desktop before reverting back to
SuSE and I've used Ubuntu for the last 3 years or so, so Debian isn't
exactly a stranger to me. More recently, for the last several months I've
had a non-gui Debian Testing VirtualBox client server and Testing seems
stable enough for my purposes. The reason why I'm interested in using
Testing is to avoid the whole upgrade process and simultaneously avoid
Debian's release cycles ... For a production server their philosophy is
correct, but I really want to play with newer software.

I used to run Debian and Mythtv sometime back, this _new_ software had
me straddled between testing and unstable.
I'd every so often end up with a broken system and have to start again.

Yes, which is exactly why I'm going with Testing, not a hybrid of Testing
and Unstable, nor Unstable.

Post by Graeme Woollett
To the best of my knowledge Debian testing is a moving target and being
beta could well give you a broken system at some stage in the constant
cycle of updates.

Theoretical risk yes. Practical risk? My 6 months experience with a Testing
VM suggests it is a low risk, certainly much lower than doing a major
upgrade every 6 months,

Post by Graeme Woollett
IMHO you would be better off sticking to the LTS releases of UBuntu,
wait a few months after a new release before going from one release to
another.

Sorry, I'll assume you aren't trolling, but I can not let this pass. Can you
explain please how staying on LTS versions of UBuntu helps achieve my stated
aim "I really want to play with newer software." which you even quoted?

If I wanted stale and stable I'd go with Debian Released, Kubuntu LTS or
CentOS. I do run a production Centos server & only upgraded from 4 to 5.5
this year.

Kubuntu yes, but I can't see myself using Ubuntu in the foreseeable future.

Post by Graeme Woollett
I used to use the minor releases of UBuntu, the constant niggles after
upgrading I don't miss. ;-)

Which is why Testing is such a good option for a play machine ... not only
do you get current versions of software, but just a few packages are
replaced at a time, not the whole shooting gallery. It's actually manageable
to go back or work-around.
--
Bruce Clement

Home: http://www.clement.co.nz/
Twitter: http://twitter.com/Bruce_Clement
Directory: http://www.searchme.co.nz/

"Before attempting to create something new, it is vital to have a good
appreciation of everything that already exists in this field." Mikhail
Kalashnikov
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[Graeme Woollett]

Post by Bruce Clement
Yes, which is exactly why I'm going with Testing, not a hybrid of Testing
and Unstable, nor Unstable.

In my case Mythtv at the time needed bleeding edge libraries that
testing didn't have, so I had no choice.
Debian is slow moving and if you play with "new" software it's likely
you will end up using sid.

Post by Bruce Clement

Post by Graeme Woollett
To the best of my knowledge Debian testing is a moving target and being
beta could well give you a broken system at some stage in the constant
cycle of updates.

Theoretical risk yes. Practical risk? My 6 months experience with a Testing
VM suggests it is a low risk, certainly much lower than doing a major
upgrade every 6 months,

Which is why you would go to the LTS releases. After all it wasn't
UBuntu's fault that the PC went off in the middle of the install. :-)

Post by Bruce Clement

Post by Graeme Woollett
IMHO you would be better off sticking to the LTS releases of UBuntu,
wait a few months after a new release before going from one release to
another.

Sorry, I'll assume you aren't trolling, but I can not let this pass. Can you
explain please how staying on LTS versions of UBuntu helps achieve my stated
aim "I really want to play with newer software." which you even quoted?

No I wasn't trolling, there's no need to get uptight about it. I was
simply stating my opinion and experience with Debian relative to what
you were describing. If you post to a mailing list you get just that -
thoughts and opinions of others.
UBuntu LTS releases puts you in the middle ground as you are trying to
do with Debian. Debian is predominantly a server OS.

It's YOUR choice and I'm not losing sleep over it :-P .

Post by Bruce Clement
If I wanted stale and stable I'd go with Debian Released, Kubuntu LTS or
CentOS. I do run a production Centos server& only upgraded from 4 to 5.5
this year.
Kubuntu yes, but I can't see myself using Ubuntu in the foreseeable future.

Post by Graeme Woollett
I used to use the minor releases of UBuntu, the constant niggles after
upgrading I don't miss. ;-)

Which is why Testing is such a good option for a play machine ... not only
do you get current versions of software, but just a few packages are
replaced at a time, not the whole shooting gallery. It's actually manageable
to go back or work-around.

--

Graeme Woollett
email ***@irl.cri.nz


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[Bruce Clement]

Post by Graeme Woollett
IMHO you would be better off sticking to the LTS releases of UBuntu,

Post by Bruce Clement

Post by Graeme Woollett
wait a few months after a new release before going from one release to
another.
Sorry, I'll assume you aren't trolling, but I can not let this pass. Can

you
explain please how staying on LTS versions of UBuntu helps achieve my stated
aim "I really want to play with newer software." which you even quoted?
No I wasn't trolling, there's no need to get uptight about it. I was

simply stating my opinion and experience with Debian relative to what
you were describing. If you post to a mailing list you get just that -
thoughts and opinions of others.

Sorry, but you still haven't answered how going with Ubuntu LTS (Last
release IIRC April LAST year) meets the *stated requirement* of playing with
newer software which led me to ditch Kubuntu in favour of Debian Testing.

UBuntu LTS releases puts you in the middle ground as you are trying to

Post by Graeme Woollett
do with Debian. Debian is predominantly a server OS.

Debian stable was not even on the short-list.

The one thing LTS is not is a middle ground in this. LTS is even older than
the regular 6 monthly Kubuntu releases which I have ditched by going to
Testing.

The jumps in version numbers between LTS releases mean that upgrades are
never going to be minor.
--
Bruce Clement

Home: http://www.clement.co.nz/
Twitter: http://twitter.com/Bruce_Clement
Directory: http://www.searchme.co.nz/

"Before attempting to create something new, it is vital to have a good
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[Graeme Woollett]

Post by Bruce Clement
Sorry, but you still haven't answered how going with Ubuntu LTS (Last
release IIRC April LAST year) meets the *stated requirement* of playing with
newer software which led me to ditch Kubuntu in favour of Debian Testing.

OK, go have a look at

http://askubuntu.com/questions/1147/is-ubuntu-based-on-debian-unstable-or-debian-testing

The LTS versions are refreshed with later versions as they are approved
by the UBuntu team and there are backports available also.
If you want newer than that there are often ppa repo's that the
application developers keep for LTS and other releases of UBuntu, not to
mention Debian.

Question answered.

--
Graeme Woollett
email ***@irl.cri.nz


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[Bruce Clement]

Post by Graeme Woollett
The LTS versions are refreshed with later versions as they are approved
by the UBuntu team and there are backports available also.
If you want newer than that there are often ppa repo's that the
application developers keep for LTS and other releases of UBuntu, not to
mention Debian.
Question answered.

And you honestly believe that this hodge podge of new and old versions will
be easier and safer than simply using Testing?

Thankfully I didn't ask your opinion on choice of operating system. Just
made a rational decision based on 12 years Linux experience and 6 months of
testing. The only thing that was unexpected was the timing.
--
Bruce Clement

Home: http://www.clement.co.nz/
Twitter: http://twitter.com/Bruce_Clement
Directory: http://www.searchme.co.nz/

"Before attempting to create something new, it is vital to have a good
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[Graeme Woollett]

Post by Bruce Clement

Post by Graeme Woollett
The LTS versions are refreshed with later versions as they are approved
by the UBuntu team and there are backports available also.
If you want newer than that there are often ppa repo's that the
application developers keep for LTS and other releases of UBuntu, not to
mention Debian.
Question answered.

And you honestly believe that this hodge podge of new and old versions will
be easier and safer than simply using Testing?
Thankfully I didn't ask your opinion on choice of operating system. Just
made a rational decision based on 12 years Linux experience and 6 months of
testing. The only thing that was unexpected was the timing.

Donning flame suit. :-D
Ouch, why do you have to be so condescending and arrogant? It's
embarrassing.
Anyway the hodge podge (as you call it) depends on how old or new the
version you require is. But I guess some are just never satisfied.


--
Graeme Woollett
email ***@irl.cri.nz


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[Bruce Clement]

Post by Graeme Woollett

Post by Graeme Woollett
Donning flame suit. :-D

Ouch, why do you have to be so condescending and arrogant? It's
embarrassing.

Perhaps I was a little strong, but if you read back through the thread you
will see that at no time did I ask for advice on choice of operating system.

I simply stated that I was moving from Kubuntu to Debian. I even stated why
I chose the version I chose so the Ubuntu fans wouldn't feel that I was
making a dig at Kubuntu which I still have on my home server, Tessa's PC &
my Mother's PC.

Yes I had a couple of teething problems, and had already solved one. The
other wasn't regarded as urgent, but Robin gave me a useful work-around
anyway.

The "advice" that Ubuntu LTS would serve my needs was unasked for and
*completely wrong*. Carrying on and saying I should have a dogs breakfast of
an 18 month old distribution with a few updates that some committee decided
to make available was the condescending bit.

Luckily I'm not a newby, because had I been I might have been badly misled.

So, yes I did react strongly.

Anyway the hodge podge (as you call it) depends on how old or new the

Post by Graeme Woollett
version you require is. But I guess some are just never satisfied.

I'd already chosen and installed the distro I wanted. "Advice" was not
sought, especially such monumentally bad advice.

In any case wouldn't touch Ubuntu with a barge pole, because I simply don't
like the Gnome desktop as much as I like KDE. Kubuntu, yes; Ubuntu no.
That's opinion, and I can tell the difference.
--
Bruce Clement

Home: http://www.clement.co.nz/
Twitter: http://twitter.com/Bruce_Clement
Directory: http://www.searchme.co.nz/

"Before attempting to create something new, it is vital to have a good
appreciation of everything that already exists in this field." Mikhail
Kalashnikov
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[Jethro Carr]

Post by Bruce Clement

Post by Graeme Woollett

Post by Graeme Woollett
Donning flame suit. :-D

Ouch, why do you have to be so condescending and arrogant? It's
embarrassing.

Perhaps I was a little strong, but if you read back through the thread you
will see that at no time did I ask for advice on choice of operating system.

You post an thread about you moving to Debian, how could you not expect
to have anyone ask you why and why you didn't consider solution XYZ?

Post by Bruce Clement
I'd already chosen and installed the distro I wanted. "Advice" was not
sought, especially such monumentally bad advice.

Have you done a reliable analysis of security defects and bug resolution
times in Ubuntu LTS + Backports compared to Debian testing? How can you
be sure that Ubuntu LTS + Backports is bad advice?

It might not suit your preferences, but that's no need to be rude and
condescending about someone asking why you did X and not Y.


regards,
jethro

[Bruce Clement]

Post by Jethro Carr
You post an thread about you moving to Debian, how could you not expect
to have anyone ask you why and why you didn't consider solution XYZ?

Except this isn't what happened. What was said was "IMHO you would be better
off sticking to the LTS releases of UBuntu, wait a few months after a new
release before going from one release to
another. I used to use the minor releases of UBuntu, the constant niggles
after upgrading I don't miss"

Nothing in the original about meeting my objectives which had already been
stated. Just a random rave about how he got problems when he tried hand
mixing Testing AND Unstable. Nowhere did I suggest mixing in Unstable.

Post by Jethro Carr

Post by Bruce Clement
I'd already chosen and installed the distro I wanted. "Advice" was not
sought, especially such monumentally bad advice.

Have you done a reliable analysis of security defects and bug resolution
times in Ubuntu LTS + Backports compared to Debian testing? How can you
be sure that Ubuntu LTS + Backports is bad advice?

No, nor did I consider returning to Suse, Yggdrasil, Yoper or trying Fedora
(Although I would like to test that one day).

FWIW I did consider trying FreeBSB ... I'm not ready to run that outside a
VM yet.

Post by Jethro Carr
It might not suit your preferences, but that's no need to be rude and
condescending about someone asking why you did X and not Y.

When I clearly state my preferences for playing with newer software I don't
need Ubuntu fanbois trying to tell me that a version of Ubuntu that was
older than the version of Kubuntu I was moving off when I had the crash that
made me decide to try Debian Testing would meet my needs when it went
directly against one of my stated objectives.

That wasn't "asking why you did X and not Y".

When that person ignored a direct question about how it met my stated
objective and continued to push Ubuntu, that was condescending, but it was
in favour of Ubuntu, so I guess it was OK.

The dogs breakfast solution was only suggested after I challenged the
posting where the direct question had been ignored.

Anyway, I'm off to dinner. Have fun
--
Bruce Clement

Home: http://www.clement.co.nz/
Twitter: http://twitter.com/Bruce_Clement
Directory: http://www.searchme.co.nz/

"Before attempting to create something new, it is vital to have a good
appreciation of everything that already exists in this field." Mikhail
Kalashnikov
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