approaching university lecturers regarding free software

[Robin Paulson]

i started a new degree this semester, and was showing my lecturer a
piece of software i use from ubuntu. she was interested in the fact it
was freely (as in beer, i didn't go into the free software ideology)
available, and wanted to show the other students on my course.

The department in question currently uses a lot of proprietary
software, which may cost them money (doubtful, these things are
usually free for educational institutes), or more likely hooks the
students into one way of thinking. You know the score - the first hit
is free, etc.

I'm sure if i showed her a lot of other pieces of software in Ubuntu
which are relevant to the department, she would be interested. I don't
know how to progress though - any recommendations?

Thanks,

--
robin

http://tangleball.org.nz/ - Auckland's Creative Space
http://openstreetmap.org.nz/ - Open Street Map New Zealand
http://bumblepuppy.org/blog/

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[Vik Olliver]

Post by Robin Paulson
I'm sure if i showed her a lot of other pieces of software in Ubuntu
which are relevant to the department, she would be interested. I don't
know how to progress though - any recommendations?

What topics is this department covering?

Vik :v)

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[Michael Field]

Hi Robin,

I know that it isn't very helpful/constructive, but after 15 or so years using FOSS I'm more of a view that Free/ Open Source Software (FOSS) is very much like any form of faith or ideology. It is very hard to persuade others who are relatively content with their lot that FOSS is better, but when people are seeking something better FOSS is sometimes the answer.

For those of us who use it free software answers our prayers. But for others (and maybe those who get academic discounts) it sometimes seems a little crack-pot.

In most cases outside of CompSci or maybe Web Design FOSS solves problems that people don't really have, or is too far outside of their current paradigm to be any more useful than closed source software.

Mike

PS. This is just my opinion, it may not agree with yours...

-----Original Message-----
From: nzlug-***@linux.net.nz [mailto:nzlug-***@linux.net.nz] On Behalf Of Robin Paulson
Sent: Monday, 11 April 2011 11:40 a.m.
To: NZLUG Mailing List; UALUG Mailing List
Subject: [nzlug] approaching university lecturers regarding free software

i started a new degree this semester, and was showing my lecturer a
piece of software i use from ubuntu. she was interested in the fact it
was freely (as in beer, i didn't go into the free software ideology)
available, and wanted to show the other students on my course.

The department in question currently uses a lot of proprietary
software, which may cost them money (doubtful, these things are
usually free for educational institutes), or more likely hooks the
students into one way of thinking. You know the score - the first hit
is free, etc.

I'm sure if i showed her a lot of other pieces of software in Ubuntu
which are relevant to the department, she would be interested. I don't
know how to progress though - any recommendations?

Thanks,

--
robin

http://tangleball.org.nz/ - Auckland's Creative Space
http://openstreetmap.org.nz/ - Open Street Map New Zealand
http://bumblepuppy.org/blog/

_______________________________________________
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[Reed Wade]

I think the problem is more interesting than that. But the solution is
always the same. People have to see and understand a benefit and want
to learn.

My sister is a linguistics professor and runs enough research that
from time to time she hires developers to build new things. I've
talked to her about the political benefits (it's a university after
all) she could accrue from ensuring that software is open source and
made available to others in her field. She's open to it and simply
hadn't been aware of the possibilities. (I need to follow up to see if
she's done anything with that.)

The approach you're already taking -- showing a specific thing which
has a specific value then "oh, by the way, there's a pile of stuff
like this, you can be a part of it if you want" is the correct one.
It's the only one that really works.

-reed



On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 11:56 AM, Michael Field

Post by Michael Field
Hi Robin,
I know that it isn't very helpful/constructive, but after 15 or so years using FOSS I'm more of a view that Free/ Open Source Software (FOSS) is very much like any form of faith or ideology. It is very hard to persuade others who are relatively content with their lot that FOSS is better, but when people are seeking something better FOSS is sometimes the answer.
For those of us who use it free software answers our prayers. But for others (and maybe those who get academic discounts) it sometimes seems a little crack-pot.
In most cases outside of CompSci or maybe Web Design FOSS solves problems that people don't really have, or is too far outside of their current paradigm to be any more useful than closed source software.
Mike
PS. This is just my opinion, it may not agree with yours...
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Monday, 11 April 2011 11:40 a.m.
To: NZLUG Mailing List; UALUG Mailing List
Subject: [nzlug] approaching university lecturers regarding free software
i started a new degree this semester, and was showing my lecturer a
piece of software i use from ubuntu. she was interested in the fact it
was freely (as in beer, i didn't go into the free software ideology)
available, and wanted to show the other students on my course.
The department in question currently uses a lot of proprietary
software, which may cost them money (doubtful, these things are
usually free for educational institutes), or more likely hooks the
students into one way of thinking. You know the score - the first hit
is free, etc.
I'm sure if i showed her a lot of other pieces of software in Ubuntu
which are relevant to the department, she would be interested. I don't
know how to progress though - any recommendations?
Thanks,
--
robin
http://tangleball.org.nz/ - Auckland's Creative Space
http://openstreetmap.org.nz/ - Open Street Map New Zealand
http://bumblepuppy.org/blog/
_______________________________________________
http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nzlug
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[Michael Field]

I fully agree with Reed, you need to nurture somebody's interest in FOSS for them to adopt it... they have to want to switch.

More philosophically I look at it as source code is the "design" for a program/system.

I might be living under a rock, but it seems that the "Open Source" paradigm hasn't got an equivalent into other fields which are largely design-based. For example, where are the 'Open' house plans? Where all the free to use, high quality, standards compliant house plans that we can use or improve on.

Even looking at the closely aligned area of microcontrollers (one of my other hobby interests) - there is Arduino, but something the Gadget Factory's Papilio One should be trouncing the field... It is an open Arduino compatible soft processor implemented in an FPGA, and you can write code for it using the Arduino or AVR toolsets. It should be winning mindshare as if you don't like some feature of the CPU or you need a peripheral that it doesn't have you just design a new one in VDHL and 'hey-presto!', you now have a much better microcontroller. You can even go as far as ZPUino (http://zpuino.blogspot.com/), who have implemented a full 32 bit CPU on the same hardware, using largely the same GUI.

I've come to the conclusion that for most areas of design 'openness' scratches an itch that nobody has - Would you build a house off of an 'open' plan, or would you go to an architect?

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: nzlug-***@linux.net.nz [mailto:nzlug-***@linux.net.nz] On Behalf Of Reed Wade
Sent: Monday, 11 April 2011 12:11 p.m.
To: NZLUG Mailing List
Subject: Re: [nzlug] approaching university lecturers regarding free software

I think the problem is more interesting than that. But the solution is
always the same. People have to see and understand a benefit and want
to learn.

...

The approach you're already taking -- showing a specific thing which
has a specific value then "oh, by the way, there's a pile of stuff
like this, you can be a part of it if you want" is the correct one.
It's the only one that really works.

-reed



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[Robin Paulson]

Post by Michael Field
I know that it isn't very helpful/constructive, but after 15 or so years using FOSS I'm more of a view that Free/ Open Source Software (FOSS) is very much like any form of faith or ideology. It is very hard to persuade others who are relatively content with their lot that FOSS is better, but when people are seeking something better FOSS is sometimes the answer.
For those of us who use it free software answers our prayers. But for others (and maybe those who get academic discounts) it sometimes seems a little crack-pot.

i agree with this, and am not going to push any of the ideological angles to her

so far, she is interested purely based upon:
1. it appears useful
2. it can be used without paying for licences, so students can use it off-site

now that i've got some interest, i will approach her again and offer
to demonstrate more software - there are a couple of others in ubuntu
which would be very useful and are quite polished and relatively easy
to use (the department does not teach a technical subject, so this is
important)

at some point if she is still interested, more technical people i.e.
uni IT support staff will be involved, which is a different angle on
the situation. i don't know what, if anything, to do when/if it goes
that far

thanks for all the suggestions, i'll see where i can get with this approach
--
robin

http://tangleball.org.nz/ - Auckland's Creative Space
http://openstreetmap.org.nz/ - Open Street Map New Zealand
http://bumblepuppy.org/blog/

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[Dave Lane]

Yes, I echo Vik's query - at U of Canterbury (and I believe this is true
elsewhere in NZ) many of the technical departments use a LOT of FOSS.
Computer science at U of C uses Python for teaching software, and I
understand their infrastructure is primarily Linux... At least in the
past, the same (widespread use of Linux) was true of Physics, Maths,
Statistics, and several of the Engineering departments.

I think it's a matter of pointing out to your lecturers and the
department that using FOSS in education is a no-brainer - it removes
artificial barriers to student exploration. Most other universities
around the world have already realised this in practice (at least within
technical departments), even if they maintain appearances of proprietary
lock-in to keep their Microsoft funded chairs, etc.

All the best with your studies,

Dave

Post by Robin Paulson
i started a new degree this semester, and was showing my lecturer a
piece of software i use from ubuntu. she was interested in the fact it
was freely (as in beer, i didn't go into the free software ideology)
available, and wanted to show the other students on my course.
The department in question currently uses a lot of proprietary
software, which may cost them money (doubtful, these things are
usually free for educational institutes), or more likely hooks the
students into one way of thinking. You know the score - the first hit
is free, etc.
I'm sure if i showed her a lot of other pieces of software in Ubuntu
which are relevant to the department, she would be interested. I don't
know how to progress though - any recommendations?
Thanks,
--
robin
http://tangleball.org.nz/ - Auckland's Creative Space
http://openstreetmap.org.nz/ - Open Street Map New Zealand
http://bumblepuppy.org/blog/
_______________________________________________
http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nzlug

[t94xr]

I agree, although most of the effort shouldnt be in the university, I
see a complete lack of computer knowledge in the common
primary/secondary school teacher.

Generally teachers lack the interest or care to learn about computers to
a point where they can or could fully take advantage of them. Although
this is solved with a newer generation of teachers taking over who are
technically capable of understanding the possibility of using a
projector and FOSS/cheap software available onine that could make their
life easier to deal with.

CameronW

Post by Dave Lane
Yes, I echo Vik's query - at U of Canterbury (and I believe this is true
elsewhere in NZ) many of the technical departments use a LOT of FOSS.
Computer science at U of C uses Python for teaching software, and I
understand their infrastructure is primarily Linux... At least in the
past, the same (widespread use of Linux) was true of Physics, Maths,
Statistics, and several of the Engineering departments.
I think it's a matter of pointing out to your lecturers and the
department that using FOSS in education is a no-brainer - it removes
artificial barriers to student exploration. Most other universities
around the world have already realised this in practice (at least within
technical departments), even if they maintain appearances of proprietary
lock-in to keep their Microsoft funded chairs, etc.
All the best with your studies,
Dave

Post by Robin Paulson
i started a new degree this semester, and was showing my lecturer a
piece of software i use from ubuntu. she was interested in the fact it
was freely (as in beer, i didn't go into the free software ideology)
available, and wanted to show the other students on my course.
The department in question currently uses a lot of proprietary
software, which may cost them money (doubtful, these things are
usually free for educational institutes), or more likely hooks the
students into one way of thinking. You know the score - the first hit
is free, etc.
I'm sure if i showed her a lot of other pieces of software in Ubuntu
which are relevant to the department, she would be interested. I don't
know how to progress though - any recommendations?
Thanks,
--
robin
http://tangleball.org.nz/ - Auckland's Creative Space
http://openstreetmap.org.nz/ - Open Street Map New Zealand
http://bumblepuppy.org/blog/
_______________________________________________
http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nzlug

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[Nevyn]

There does seem to be a big giant gaping hole in FLOSS around this.
Remember, Linux is primarily built by geeks - for geeks. That
user-friendly goodness? It's usually thrown on top.

So teachers - who don't want to spend their off hours learning
stuff.... really need stuff built for them to use. A decent
whiteboarding application (a simplified gimp?). Something that allows
the teacher to create a class list and use that to generate checklists
or groups (an easy to use cut down spreadsheet). A really simple
vector graphic animating thing (like that stickman thing in Windows).
But mostly, some serious blingey type stuff. A stable Openshot for
example. Something that allows you to do a combination of raster and
vector graphics and use for frame based animations etc.

The lack of knowledge is mostly due to a lack of easy to use, useful
for teaching, tools in my opinion.

Regards,
Nevyn
http://nevsramblings.blogspot.com/

I agree, although most of the effort shouldnt be in the university, I see a
complete lack of computer knowledge in the common primary/secondary school
teacher.
Generally teachers lack the interest or care to learn about computers to a
point where they can or could fully take advantage of them. Although this is
solved with a newer generation of teachers taking over who are technically
capable of understanding the possibility of using a projector and FOSS/cheap
software available onine that could make their life easier to deal with.
CameronW

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[Simon Bridge]

Post by t94xr
Generally teachers lack the interest or care to learn about computers to
a point where they can or could fully take advantage of them. Although
this is solved with a newer generation of teachers taking over who are
technically capable of understanding the possibility of using a
projector and FOSS/cheap software available onine that could make their
life easier to deal with.

I,ve been in there recently and the newcomers are also not interested:
it is the usual story everywhere - the decision-makers meet some
salesman who promotes a packaged solution and goes away. A lot of
schools have, for eg, a defunct interactive whiteboard or a bunch of
computer interface modules for science but either the device stopped
working and support has gone or the software to run the things only
works for old computers they don't have.

When I have told people that there is a better way, even demonstrated,
they seem to cling to their ignorance: it is slow going. It usually
needs an enabler from inside the school to get a change - basically,
nobody wants to be told they have spent the schools money in the wrong
place.

BTW: Waiheke High School has adopted this thing called "Ultranet" on the
free-sample "endorsed by Ministry" thing. In a few years the subsidy
vanishes and then what?

Isn't stuff like Moodle also endorced?
Are Moodle providers advertising "endorced by..." in big letters on
their site?

This looks like a place we can make headway on.


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[Chris Neilson]

You personally might not build a house off an open plan, but would you
rather hire an architect that only has access to their own ideas (cf
closed source) or an architect that can look at the plans/designs of
others and modify them as necessary?

Additionally, would you prefer that the architect gives you their plans
once they are done (so you are free to hire any competent architect to
make modifications in the future) or one that keeps the plans themselves
so you have to go back to them every time you want to make a
modification?

Education itself is only really useful if its open source. Would you pay
uni fees if you were only allowed to use the knowledge you gained in
particular situations?

Message: 3
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 12:47:14 +1200
Subject: RE: [nzlug] approaching university lecturers regarding free
software
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I fully agree with Reed, you need to nurture somebody's interest in FOSS for them to adopt it... they have to want to switch.
More philosophically I look at it as source code is the "design" for a program/system.
I might be living under a rock, but it seems that the "Open Source" paradigm hasn't got an equivalent into other fields which are largely design-based. For example, where are the 'Open' house plans? Where all the free to use, high quality, standards compliant house plans that we can use or improve on.
Even looking at the closely aligned area of microcontrollers (one of my other hobby interests) - there is Arduino, but something the Gadget Factory's Papilio One should be trouncing the field... It is an open Arduino compatible soft processor implemented in an FPGA, and you can write code for it using the Arduino or AVR toolsets. It should be winning mindshare as if you don't like some feature of the CPU or you need a peripheral that it doesn't have you just design a new one in VDHL and 'hey-presto!', you now have a much better microcontroller. You can even go as far as ZPUino (http://zpuino.blogspot.com/), who have implemented a full 32 bit CPU on the same hardware, using largely the same GUI.
I've come to the conclusion that for most areas of design 'openness' scratches an itch that nobody has - Would you build a house off of an 'open' plan, or would you go to an architect?
Mike

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[Michael Field]

Damn it! Should have used a car analogy.... :-)

Now I'm not sure... When you build a house does <house building company X> give you the plans unencumbered, so can you give the plan to somebody else to build a copy of your house?

Or is it more like wedding photos... you can look at them, but they retain ownership/copyright?

My -guess- is that is the latter... a bit like Uni text books - you own the book, you can use the knowledge in that book, but you can't create copies of it for others...

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: nzlug-***@linux.net.nz [mailto:nzlug-***@linux.net.nz] On Behalf Of Chris Neilson
Sent: Wednesday, 13 April 2011 8:50 a.m.
To: ***@linux.net.nz
Subject: RE: [nzlug] approaching university lecturers regarding free software

You personally might not build a house off an open plan, but would you
rather hire an architect that only has access to their own ideas (cf
closed source) or an architect that can look at the plans/designs of
others and modify them as necessary?

Additionally, would you prefer that the architect gives you their plans
once they are done (so you are free to hire any competent architect to
make modifications in the future) or one that keeps the plans themselves
so you have to go back to them every time you want to make a
modification?

Education itself is only really useful if its open source. Would you pay
uni fees if you were only allowed to use the knowledge you gained in
particular situations?

[Bruce Clement]

On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 11:04 AM, Michael Field <

Post by Michael Field
Damn it! Should have used a car analogy.... :-)
Now I'm not sure... When you build a house does <house building company X>
give you the plans unencumbered, so can you give the plan to somebody else
to build a copy of your house?
Or is it more like wedding photos... you can look at them, but they retain
ownership/copyright?
My -guess- is that is the latter... a bit like Uni text books - you own the
book, you can use the knowledge in that book, but you can't create copies of
it for others...

You get what is written in the contract which should be you get what you
negotiated to get. If you want rights to build an unlimited number of copies
of the house you need to negotiate that up front. Same for wedding photos,
usually you can negotiate a buy-out of the copyright at the time you are
negotiating the order, if the photographer won't agree to this just go to
another photographer.

Of course, there could be patent or petty patent issues beyond the control
of the builder or photographer. See for instance "Wheel patented in
Australia"
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn965-wheel-patented-in-australia.html

Bruce
--
Bruce Clement

Home: http://www.clement.co.nz/
Twitter: http://twitter.com/Bruce_Clement
Directory: http://www.searchme.co.nz/

"Before attempting to create something new, it is vital to have a good
appreciation of everything that already exists in this field." Mikhail
Kalashnikov
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[yuri]

Post by Michael Field
Or is it more like wedding photos... you can look at them, but they retain ownership/copyright?

My wedding photos (2002-04-13, 9 years ago today) were work-for-hire.
I spoke to nearly every photographer in the Christchurch yellow pages
before I found one that was willing to give me the negatives and the
rights to my own wedding.

I'm sure if you shopped around and were prepared to pay a bit more,
you'd find an architect that would give you the plans and the rights
that go with them.

In fact, I wish more people would request this in many areas and
create more of a demand for it.

Yuri

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[Nick Rout]

Post by yuri

Post by Michael Field
Or is it more like wedding photos... you can look at them, but they retain ownership/copyright?

My wedding photos (2002-04-13, 9 years ago today) were work-for-hire.
I spoke to nearly every photographer in the Christchurch yellow pages
before I found one that was willing to give me the negatives and the
rights to my own wedding.
I'm sure if you shopped around and were prepared to pay a bit more,
you'd find an architect that would give you the plans and the rights
that go with them.
In fact, I wish more people would request this in many areas and
create more of a demand for it.

s21 of the copyright act provides:

(3) Where—
(a) a person commissions, and pays or agrees to pay for, the
taking of a photograph or the making of a computer program, painting,
drawing, diagram, map, chart, plan, engraving, model, sculpture, film,
or sound recording; and
(b) the work is made in pursuance of that commission,—
that person is the first owner of any copyright in the work.
(4) Subsections (2) and (3) apply subject to any agreement to the contrary.

So if you simply commission a plan or a photograph, without further
agreement you own the copyright.

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[Guy K. Kloss]

Post by Nick Rout
So if you simply commission a plan or a photograph, without further
agreement you own the copyright.

But potentially not the negatives ...

We've had a bit of bickering with our photographer in Europe in 2004 as well,
but in the end got all the digital data and rights on CD.

Guy

[Nick Rout]

Post by Guy K. Kloss

Post by Nick Rout
So if you simply commission a plan or a photograph, without further
agreement you own the copyright.

But potentially not the negatives ...

indeed, just the copyright in the images.

Post by Guy K. Kloss
We've had a bit of bickering with our photographer in Europe in 2004 as well,
but in the end got all the digital data and rights on CD.
Guy
--
Guy K. Kloss
School of Computing + Mathematical Sciences
Auckland University of Technology
Private Bag 92006, Auckland 1142
phone: [phone] ext. 5032
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[yuri]

Post by Nick Rout
(3) Where—
     (a) a person commissions, and pays or agrees to pay for, the
taking of a photograph or the making of a computer program, painting,
drawing, diagram, map, chart, plan, engraving, model, sculpture, film,
or sound recording; and
     (b) the work is made in pursuance of that commission,—
that person is the first owner of any copyright in the work.
(4) Subsections (2) and (3) apply subject to any agreement to the contrary.
So if you simply commission a plan or a photograph, without further
agreement you own the copyright.

"without further agreement" being the key phrase. Most professional
photographers and architects etc will have standard terms and
conditions giving them all the rights. This is what I struck when
going thru the yellow pages and calling all the photographers.

Yuri

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[Nick Rout]

Post by yuri

Post by Nick Rout
(3) Where—
     (a) a person commissions, and pays or agrees to pay for, the
taking of a photograph or the making of a computer program, painting,
drawing, diagram, map, chart, plan, engraving, model, sculpture, film,
or sound recording; and
     (b) the work is made in pursuance of that commission,—
that person is the first owner of any copyright in the work.
(4) Subsections (2) and (3) apply subject to any agreement to the contrary.
So if you simply commission a plan or a photograph, without further
agreement you own the copyright.

"without further agreement" being the key phrase. Most professional
photographers and architects etc will have standard terms and
conditions giving them all the rights. This is what I struck when
going thru the yellow pages and calling all the photographers.

yes that's true, and indeed I always advise creative types to at LEAST
put in a clause retaining copyright until they have been paid in full.

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[Simon Bridge]

Post by Chris Neilson
You personally might not build a house off an open plan, but would you
rather hire an architect that only has access to their own ideas (cf
closed source) or an architect that can look at the plans/designs of
others and modify them as necessary?

http://www.opensourcearchitecture.net/
http://www.ahds.ac.uk/copyrightfaq.htm#faq38

Archtects plans work a bit like clothing designs - further, architects
have access to sets of plans designed by others to help them work.

I don't think building plans can be patented.

I'll add to Chris' list: would you hire an architect who refuses to show
you the plans? "I promise to build you a really good, um, building but I
won't let you see how it's done nor will I allow my design to be subject
to indipendant review."


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