Discussion:
OpenSUSE?
Mark Foster
2011-07-29 07:46:16 UTC
Permalink
About to give OpenSUSE a whirl. Anyone got any thoughts - good, bad or
indifferent?



Was discussing alternatives to Ubuntu for a desktop OS and this came highly
recommended from a friend. However he's a KDE user, and I've been a GNOME'r
since Ubuntu 8. seems OpenSUSE offers both, but I havn't otherwise used it..





I'd appreciate opinions from the masses J





Cheers

Mark.

_______________________________________________
NZLUG mailing list ***@linux.net.nz
http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nzlug
Jaco
2011-07-29 08:04:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Foster
About to give OpenSUSE a whirl. Anyone got any thoughts - good, bad or
indifferent?
Other than the obvious Novell-issues? It's actually not a bad OS.

What are your requirements (that Ubuntu-desktop or vanilla Debian can't
meet)?
Arch seems pretty popular for those that like a fully hands-on approach?
Fedora/Centos?

- J

_______________________________________________
NZLUG mailing list ***@linux.net.nz
http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nzlug
Mark Foster
2011-07-29 08:09:57 UTC
Permalink
Novell issues? Been a long time - what's the current story?

Part of the it is a professional need to get familiar with distros that use
rpm, as opposed to my Debian/Ubuntu-centric expertise of the last few years.

And part of it is the need to ensure that I pick a distro that is used by
others around me so that I can beg/borrow/steal tech support when I need it.
:-)

I need to stretch my wings, and it was the first distro recommended to me.
Have to admit I also considered CentOS.

Sell me? (oh god am I starting a distro war?)



-----Original Message-----
From: nzlug-***@linux.net.nz [mailto:nzlug-***@linux.net.nz] On
Behalf Of Jaco
Sent: Friday, 29 July 2011 8:04 p.m.
To: NZLUG Mailing List
Subject: Re: [nzlug] OpenSUSE?
Post by Mark Foster
About to give OpenSUSE a whirl. Anyone got any thoughts - good, bad or
indifferent?
Other than the obvious Novell-issues? It's actually not a bad OS.

What are your requirements (that Ubuntu-desktop or vanilla Debian can't
meet)?
Arch seems pretty popular for those that like a fully hands-on approach?
Fedora/Centos?

- J

_______________________________________________
NZLUG mailing list ***@linux.net.nz
http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nzlug


_______________________________________________
NZLUG mailing list ***@linux.net.nz
http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nzlug
Ben M
2011-07-29 08:25:23 UTC
Permalink
Having used Slackware, Slax, RedHat, Gentoo, Knoppix, Debian, Ubuntu,
Fedora but not OpenSUSE, if you are looking to gain some .rpm
experience, go Fedora. It is very mature, well supported, has a great
PacMan and is slightly more "enterprisey" than most IMHO.

If you want to use a .rpm-based distro and get tech support from those
around you go OpenSUSE.

As an aside the O/S name is unattractive, bit like the "Ugly Lizard" it
uses for a mascot/brand.
Post by Mark Foster
Novell issues? Been a long time - what's the current story?
Part of the it is a professional need to get familiar with distros that use
rpm, as opposed to my Debian/Ubuntu-centric expertise of the last few years.
And part of it is the need to ensure that I pick a distro that is used by
others around me so that I can beg/borrow/steal tech support when I need it.
:-)
I need to stretch my wings, and it was the first distro recommended to me.
Have to admit I also considered CentOS.
Sell me? (oh god am I starting a distro war?)
_______________________________________________
NZLUG mailing list ***@linux.net.nz
http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nzlug
Cliff Pratt
2011-07-29 10:23:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben M
As an aside the O/S name is unattractive, bit like the "Ugly Lizard" it
uses for a mascot/brand.
I think it is supposed to be a Chameleon.

Cheers,

Cliff

_______________________________________________
NZLUG mailing list ***@linux.net.nz
http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nzlug
Ben M
2011-07-29 10:37:09 UTC
Permalink
It is a Chameleon ... still ugly though.

On 29/07/11 22:23, Cliff Pratt wrote:

_______________________________________________
NZLUG mailing list ***@linux.net.nz
http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nzlug
Volker Kuhlmann
2011-07-29 10:14:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Foster
Novell issues? Been a long time - what's the current story?
There isn't one. Some years ago Novell did a "we will not sue each other
over patents" deal with Microsoft, but it only covers the enterprise
edition, i.e. no difference to you and me. A lot of hot air about
nothing is my general opinion (and I have zero tolerance for software
patents and patent trolls). As one result of this deal Billy is selling
a lot of Linux, he's recently run out of tickets and had to buy some
more.

Beyond that Novell is putting a *lot* of money into Linux, which
includes for example paying the salaries of some kernel developers. For
comparison, Red Hat is paying several too, 'buntu is free-loading and I
don't know about others. Novell pays for a large public free (yes FOSS)
compile farm and they were the only ones with enough foresight to make
this work for all current versions of all major distros, so if you want
to publish packages of your software you only need to set up the
building once. All parts of that build system are published under GPL,
if you prefer to set yourself up at home (look for the osc package).

In short, I don't see a Novell issue. They played a key part in kicking
Darl McLooser's dingdings. People just like to complain. About openSUSE
too, frequently from a position of ignorance.

The distro itself is technically competent and at the top of ease of
use. The system setup program (yast) is very integrated and easily the
best I've come across, and it handles some less frequent configurations
too. I remember giving up adding a second IP address to the network card
with 'buntu 2 years ago because the thing was just too stupid to get the
job done, which I found surprising given that I've been doing that for
the last decade with yast without a hitch. In general yast works by
modifying variables in files under /etc/sysconfig/, which are used by
scripts to update system and application config files in /etc. I find
that saving me a lot of time because I can click a few basic things
together and get started before having to turn over tons of pages of
manual for $FAVOURITEAPPLICATION, which I leave for when needed.
Meanwhile I'm up and running. It's something you can give to your uncle,
and talk someone through over the phone with. Those config scripts won't
touch files if they've been manually edited and drop the auto-version of
the new config file next to the real one instead. There are a few not so
well-known pieces in it, e.g. scpm, which manages system configuration
sets, and it can do this for any config file, not just your network
interface. openSUSE is probably the most LSB-compliant distro around and
likely the best choice for KDE. Red Hat and Debian don't really care,
and kubuntu - well I'd lough if the joke wasn't so bad.

To install it, the boring way is to burn an ISO. The more geeky way is
to loopmount the ISO under vsftp, and either only burn the network
install image to boot, or to boot network pxe. If you care to set up an
SLP server (happy to post the configs) you can select slp in the
installer, in which case it'll broadcast for the installation server and
most of the network info.

For remote installation, boot the kernel with installer by your
favourite means (there are some more suggestions here:
http://en.opensuse.org/SDB:Remote_installation ), but add to the boot
prompt:
usessh=1 sshpassword=12345678 install=ftp://loopmountedISO

Note the password must be exactly 8 characters. Boot that, then login
with ssh -X hosttobeinstalled
and run yast2. You get the same as if running on console.

There is a very big number of packages if you add some community
repositories. Configure installation sources in yast and take your pick.
You'll want packman for a lot of things, including codecs the content
mafia doesn't want you to have. nvidia binary drivers are a few clicks
away.


As alternative rpm-based distro I'd consider centos. I was not enthused
about fedora, too half-baked.

HTH,

Volker
--
Volker Kuhlmann is list0570 with the domain in header.
http://volker.dnsalias.net/ Please do not CC list postings to me.

_______________________________________________
NZLUG mailing list ***@linux.net.nz
http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nzlug
Patrick Connolly
2011-07-31 10:22:38 UTC
Permalink
Somewhere about Fri, 29-Jul-2011 at 10:14PM +1200 (give or take), Volker Kuhlmann wrote:


[....]

|> You'll want packman for a lot of things, including codecs the content
|> mafia doesn't want you to have. nvidia binary drivers are a few clicks
|> away.
|>
|>
|> As alternative rpm-based distro I'd consider centos. I was not enthused
|> about fedora, too half-baked.

I would concur with that. CentOS is the easiest rpm-based distro I've
used. A lot depends on what you need, but for me, Fedora is too
fiddly because some of it just doesn't work which is fine if you don't
mind being a beta tester. The flakey bits seem to change from release
to release. CentOS isn't flash but it's very stable. Some say it's
only good for servers but I use it for a desktop on a machine that
needs to keep working even if it's not up to date with Kansas City.
Provided it has a new enough compiler, it's something you can get on
with without continually fiddling with flakey settings.
--
___ Patrick Connolly
{~._.~}
_( Y )_ Good judgment comes from experience
(:_~*~_:) Experience comes from bad judgment
(_)-(_)


_______________________________________________
NZLUG mailing list ***@linux.net.nz
http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nzlug
Cliff Pratt
2011-07-29 10:20:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Foster
Novell issues? Been a long time - what's the current story?
Part of the it is a professional need to get familiar with distros that use
rpm, as opposed to my Debian/Ubuntu-centric expertise of the last few years.
And part of it is the need to ensure that I pick a distro that is used by
others around me so that I can beg/borrow/steal tech support when I need it.
:-)
I need to stretch my wings, and it was the first distro recommended to me.
Have to admit I also considered CentOS.
Sell me? (oh god am I starting a distro war?)
-----Original Message-----
Behalf Of Jaco
Sent: Friday, 29 July 2011 8:04 p.m.
To: NZLUG Mailing List
Subject: Re: [nzlug] OpenSUSE?
Post by Mark Foster
About to give OpenSUSE a whirl. Anyone got any thoughts - good, bad or
indifferent?
Other than the obvious Novell-issues? It's actually not a bad OS.
What are your requirements (that Ubuntu-desktop or vanilla Debian can't
meet)?
Arch seems pretty popular for those that like a fully hands-on approach?
Fedora/Centos?
CentOS is going to be closer to RedHat if that is the distro of choice.

We used to call SuSE 'the slug', but I'd hesitate to say that it is
still slow as it is years since I last used it.

My impression was that it was designed for people who could only point
and click - everything seemed to have to be done through a GUI. RedHat
at the time seemed to emphasise the GUI, but still documented the CLI
processes.

Cheers,

Cliff

_______________________________________________
NZLUG mailing list ***@linux.net.nz
http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nzlug
Robin Sheat
2011-07-29 20:03:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cliff Pratt
CentOS is going to be closer to RedHat if that is the distro of choice.
Scientific Linux is probably closer, if you're looking for RHEL-like. Simply
because CentOS is a bit slow about updating.

Otherwise, my suggestion, just due to observed popularity, would be Fedora.

Robin.
Volker Kuhlmann
2011-07-29 23:33:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robin Sheat
Scientific Linux is probably closer, if you're looking for RHEL-like. Simply
because CentOS is a bit slow about updating.
Scientific Linux is at least as far behind as Debian
stale^H^H^H^H^Hstable, and I wasn't sure whether it'd also be better
suited to headless boxes than desktops.

Volker
--
Volker Kuhlmann is list0570 with the domain in header.
http://volker.dnsalias.net/ Please do not CC list postings to me.

_______________________________________________
NZLUG mailing list ***@linux.net.nz
http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nzlug
Steve Holdoway
2011-07-30 04:11:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Volker Kuhlmann
Post by Robin Sheat
Scientific Linux is probably closer, if you're looking for RHEL-like. Simply
because CentOS is a bit slow about updating.
Scientific Linux is at least as far behind as Debian
stale^H^H^H^H^Hstable, and I wasn't sure whether it'd also be better
suited to headless boxes than desktops.
Volker
Debian stable only came out a few months ago, and 3 months *after* RHEL
6.0, so the stale comment is a bit stale itself!

The problem with Scientific Linux as opposed to CentOS is that it is a
*superset* of RHEL, and as such will be different enough for guarantees
to be voided. Probably not much of a worry to most, but the devil's in
the fine print.

And Sci is also at least 40 days behind RHEL. So if you need to be that
bleeding edge on functionality ( not patches, that's a completely
different question! ), then you've only really got one choice.

Personally, if I need to be that bleeding edge I build the relevant
products from source on a stable ( preferably debian ) platform. Gphoto2
is one, although I think my reliability problems are in the usb layer,
not the product itself.

Steve
--
Steve Holdoway BSc(Hons) MNZCS <***@greengecko.co.nz>
http://www.greengecko.co.nz
MSN: ***@greengecko.co.nz
Skype: sholdowa
Volker Kuhlmann
2011-07-30 09:14:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Holdoway
Debian stable only came out a few months ago, and 3 months *after* RHEL
6.0, so the stale comment is a bit stale itself!
Stale means releasing a distro shipping X version y.z when y.z was
released 2 years ago and there have been 5 more releases of X since.
I thought you'd realise that. Saying "distro was released last month" or
"before/after distro ABC" is totally meaningless.

Volker
--
Volker Kuhlmann is list0570 with the domain in header.
http://volker.dnsalias.net/ Please do not CC list postings to me.

_______________________________________________
NZLUG mailing list ***@linux.net.nz
http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nzlug
Zarek Jenkinson
2011-07-29 08:12:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Foster
About to give OpenSUSE a whirl. Anyone got any thoughts - good, bad or
Post by Mark Foster
indifferent?
Other than the obvious Novell-issues? It's actually not a bad OS.
What are your requirements (that Ubuntu-desktop or vanilla Debian can't
meet)?
Arch seems pretty popular for those that like a fully hands-on approach?
Fedora/Centos?
+1 for Arch.

YaST = horrible. Otherwise OpenSUSE isn't that bad.
CentOS is good if you're looking for a decent RPM-based distro.
--
Zarek Jenkinson
(+64) 021 0226 2670
http://akiwiguy.tk/

Disclaimer:
By sending an email to any of my addresses you are agreeing that:
1. I am by definition, "the intended recipient"
2. All information in the email is mine to do with as I see fit and make
such
financial profit, political mileage, or good joke as it lends itself to.
3. I may take the contents as representing the views of your company.
4. This overrides any disclaimer or statement of confidentiality that may
be included on your message.
_______________________________________________
NZLUG mailing list ***@linux.net.nz
http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nzlug
Steve Holdoway
2011-07-29 08:25:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zarek Jenkinson
Post by Mark Foster
About to give OpenSUSE a whirl. Anyone got any thoughts - good, bad or
Post by Mark Foster
indifferent?
Other than the obvious Novell-issues? It's actually not a bad OS.
What are your requirements (that Ubuntu-desktop or vanilla Debian can't
meet)?
Arch seems pretty popular for those that like a fully hands-on approach?
Fedora/Centos?
+1 for Arch.
YaST = horrible. Otherwise OpenSUSE isn't that bad.
CentOS is good if you're looking for a decent RPM-based distro.
I agree about YaST2, although the relationship with SLES could be useful
if you're into that market. It's selling point used to be that it did
it's upgrades using delta RPMs which saved a lot of bandwidth. No too
relevant now.

Not too sure where CentOS is going these days, now Dag Wieers is no
longer associated, and it took so long to release 6.0.

Steve
--
Steve Holdoway <***@greengecko.co.nz>
http://www.greengecko.co.nz
MSN: ***@greengecko.co.nz
Skype: sholdowa


_______________________________________________
NZLUG mailing list ***@linux.net.nz
http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nzlug
Scott Newton
2011-07-29 09:47:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Foster
About to give OpenSUSE a whirl. Anyone got any thoughts - good, bad or
indifferent?
Was discussing alternatives to Ubuntu for a desktop OS and this came highly
recommended from a friend. However he's a KDE user, and I've been a GNOME'r
since Ubuntu 8. seems OpenSUSE offers both, but I havn't otherwise used it..
I use openSUSE at home, Debian for servers and Ubuntu at work. I'm also a KDE
user (never did like Gnome). I use to use Mandriva but a couple of years back
moved over to openSUSE. Every now and again I get tempted to move away from
openSUSE but after looking at the alternatives go back to it. However as the
main reason I end up going back to it is the KDE packages maybe I'm not the
person you want to take advice from :-)
--
Regards
Scott Newton

_______________________________________________
NZLUG mailing list ***@linux.net.nz
http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nzlug
Ron Wilson
2011-07-29 09:54:39 UTC
Permalink
Ubuntu also comes in a KDE flavour called kubuntu. From my point of view it
depends on what sort of package base you want. Suse is a Red Hat derivitive
and Ubuntu/Kubuntu is a Debian base. I prefer the Debian. If you want
something a little smarter than Ubuntu but still based on it then try Mint.
It has the little extras included that Ubuntu requires you to add in
manually.
Post by Mark Foster
Post by Mark Foster
About to give OpenSUSE a whirl. Anyone got any thoughts - good, bad or
indifferent?
Was discussing alternatives to Ubuntu for a desktop OS and this came
highly
Post by Mark Foster
recommended from a friend. However he's a KDE user, and I've been a
GNOME'r
Post by Mark Foster
since Ubuntu 8. seems OpenSUSE offers both, but I havn't otherwise used it..
I use openSUSE at home, Debian for servers and Ubuntu at work. I'm also a KDE
user (never did like Gnome). I use to use Mandriva but a couple of years back
moved over to openSUSE. Every now and again I get tempted to move away from
openSUSE but after looking at the alternatives go back to it. However as the
main reason I end up going back to it is the KDE packages maybe I'm not the
person you want to take advice from :-)
--
Regards
Scott Newton
_______________________________________________
http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nzlug
--
*Ron Wilson*
_______________________________________________
NZLUG mailing list ***@linux.net.nz
http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nzlug
Volker Kuhlmann
2011-07-29 10:29:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ron Wilson
Suse is a Red Hat derivitive
and Ubuntu/Kubuntu is a Debian base.
SUSE has never been a derivative of Red Hat, it uses the rpm package
format but has always been built independently from scratch[1]. That
they both go towards LSB is different. In contrast, 'buntu are a Debian
derivative. The distinction matters when you want to install packages
from one on the other. It's probably only Debian users who expect to be
able to cross-install packages Red Hat/SUSE, others know that it isn't
expected to work, frequently doesn't work, and why this is so. The
further 'buntu moves from Debian the more problems like that there will
be too. Some Debian people say that therefore the rpm format is rubbish,
but they missed the point completely. It has nothing to do with package
formats.

Volker

[1] Well I don't know about 1995. I don't think so, but who cares.
--
Volker Kuhlmann is list0570 with the domain in header.
http://volker.dnsalias.net/ Please do not CC list postings to me.

_______________________________________________
NZLUG mailing list ***@linux.net.nz
http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nzlug
Jaco
2011-07-29 20:30:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Foster
I'd appreciate opinions from the masses
What about going "hard core" & ditching linux in favor of BSD, the
*real* beardie-guy's OS?
I've been having a lot of fun in FreeBSD recently & getting a lot of
mileage out of some OS/X with MacPorts installed.

I'm running a VM (VBox) on this system to fill in the gaps, so there's
not a lot I'm missing.

May be a totally different way to go?

- J


_______________________________________________
NZLUG mailing list ***@linux.net.nz
http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nzlug
Mark Foster
2011-07-29 20:41:25 UTC
Permalink
Thanks Jaco, but no, it'll definitely be Linux, not BSD :-)


-----Original Message-----
From: nzlug-***@linux.net.nz [mailto:nzlug-***@linux.net.nz] On
Behalf Of Jaco
Sent: Saturday, 30 July 2011 8:31 a.m.
To: ***@linux.net.nz
Subject: Re: [nzlug] OpenSUSE?
Post by Mark Foster
I'd appreciate opinions from the masses
What about going "hard core" & ditching linux in favor of BSD, the
*real* beardie-guy's OS?
I've been having a lot of fun in FreeBSD recently & getting a lot of mileage
out of some OS/X with MacPorts installed.

I'm running a VM (VBox) on this system to fill in the gaps, so there's not a
lot I'm missing.

May be a totally different way to go?

- J


_______________________________________________
NZLUG mailing list ***@linux.net.nz
http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nzlug


_______________________________________________
NZLUG mailing list ***@linux.net.nz
http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nzlug
Mark Foster
2011-07-29 20:47:14 UTC
Permalink
For everyone else, thanks for the feedback... sounds like OpenSUSE is worth
trying.

I grabbed the LiveCD Images yesterday and wrote them to USB. They won't
boot :( I was hoping to get away with not burning an actual CD. Might have
to try to find a blank, though...

(I was able to get my Ubuntu 10.10 Netbook Stick to boot fine, so there must
be something odd about the boot-from-USB instructions... When read from
Linux the sticks contain stuff, but are unreadable in Windows 7; by
comparison the Ubuntu stick is infact readable from Windows.)



-----Original Message-----
From: nzlug-***@linux.net.nz [mailto:nzlug-***@linux.net.nz] On
Behalf Of Mark Foster
Sent: Saturday, 30 July 2011 8:41 a.m.
To: 'NZLUG Mailing List'
Subject: RE: [nzlug] OpenSUSE?

Thanks Jaco, but no, it'll definitely be Linux, not BSD :-)


-----Original Message-----
From: nzlug-***@linux.net.nz [mailto:nzlug-***@linux.net.nz] On
Behalf Of Jaco
Sent: Saturday, 30 July 2011 8:31 a.m.
To: ***@linux.net.nz
Subject: Re: [nzlug] OpenSUSE?
Post by Mark Foster
I'd appreciate opinions from the masses
What about going "hard core" & ditching linux in favor of BSD, the
*real* beardie-guy's OS?
I've been having a lot of fun in FreeBSD recently & getting a lot of mileage
out of some OS/X with MacPorts installed.

I'm running a VM (VBox) on this system to fill in the gaps, so there's not a
lot I'm missing.

May be a totally different way to go?

- J


_______________________________________________
NZLUG mailing list ***@linux.net.nz
http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nzlug


_______________________________________________
NZLUG mailing list ***@linux.net.nz
http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nzlug


_______________________________________________
NZLUG mailing list ***@linux.net.nz
http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nzlug
Volker Kuhlmann
2011-07-29 23:40:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Foster
I grabbed the LiveCD Images yesterday and wrote them to USB. They won't
boot :(
Seems like they could be buggy in 11.4. I've had too much trouble
booting from USB so gave up.
Post by Mark Foster
I was hoping to get away with not burning an actual CD. Might have
to try to find a blank, though...
I find the easiest is to pull a rewritable CD out of the bottom drawer
and to burn the net install image onto it. If you have a previous Linux
with grub on it (or lilo) the link I posted last says which about 3
files from the installation media to copy and how to enter that into the
boot loader. There are many more ways to boot Linux. From there you can
install from whatever source you can reach or have available.

Volker
--
Volker Kuhlmann is list0570 with the domain in header.
http://volker.dnsalias.net/ Please do not CC list postings to me.

_______________________________________________
NZLUG mailing list ***@linux.net.nz
http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nzlug
Shiv Manas
2011-07-29 23:51:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Foster
For everyone else, thanks for the feedback... sounds like OpenSUSE is worth
trying.
I grabbed the LiveCD Images yesterday and wrote them to USB.  They won't
boot :(  I was hoping to get away with not burning an actual CD. Might have
to try to find a blank, though...
(I was able to get my Ubuntu 10.10 Netbook Stick to boot fine, so there must
be something odd about the boot-from-USB instructions... When read from
Linux the sticks contain stuff, but are unreadable in Windows 7; by
comparison the Ubuntu stick is infact readable from Windows.)
How did you write it? I found that suse USBs written using dd_rescue
has a better chance of booting than dd (dd_rescue opensuse.iso
/dev/sdX). If that doesn't work, you could use a utility like YUMI to
create a bootable USB for you. (Or if you're up for it, you could
manually extract the files to a FAT32 partition, install syslinux and
change the mbrid)

-----

While I have the utmost respect for openSUSE as a long time user,
after giving Debian a Fedora a try I just can't go back to the
horribly slow package management in suse. A simple repo update took
ages in comparison to other distros - and I had just the default repos
enabled along with packman. It was so painful that I had to dump the
whole distro and switch to a different platform altogether. If you do
give openSUSE a fair try, I would be interested to know how zypper and
YaST work for you.

_______________________________________________
NZLUG mailing list ***@linux.net.nz
http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nzlug
Robin Sheat
2011-07-30 00:18:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Shiv Manas
How did you write it? I found that suse USBs written using dd_rescue
has a better chance of booting than dd (dd_rescue opensuse.iso
/dev/sdX).
That's very hard to do right.

For more than you ever wanted to know about this sort of thing (also, it
panders to my dislike of Apple, though on technical grounds :) check this out:

http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/4957.html

Robin.
Shiv Manas
2011-07-30 00:34:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robin Sheat
Post by Shiv Manas
How did you write it? I found that suse USBs written using dd_rescue
has a better chance of booting than dd (dd_rescue opensuse.iso
/dev/sdX).
That's very hard to do right.
For more than you ever wanted to know about this sort of thing (also, it
http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/4957.html
Robin.
That was a good read thanks, very informative, especially given that
the new system I'm building has a UEFI instead of a BIOS. :/ Yes, it's
not an Apple - most new motherboards these days prefer UEFI. Like it
or not, it appears that the simple BIOS we knew and loved is being
retired...

_______________________________________________
NZLUG mailing list ***@linux.net.nz
http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nzlug
Volker Kuhlmann
2011-07-30 00:33:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Shiv Manas
How did you write it? I found that suse USBs written using dd_rescue
has a better chance of booting than dd (dd_rescue opensuse.iso
/dev/sdX).
There could not possibly be any difference, unless you have faulty flash
media. Both do a block copy and are identical in behaviour assuming no
I/O errors. As soon as you have I/O errors, which are hardware errors,
you can't complain about software errors.
Post by Shiv Manas
horribly slow package management in suse. A simple repo update took
ages in comparison to other distros - and I had just the default repos
enabled along with packman. It was so painful that I had to dump the
whole distro and switch to a different platform altogether. If you do
give openSUSE a fair try, I would be interested to know how zypper and
YaST work for you.
At about 10.x whatever that mono stuff was called was rubbish (but it
did solve a few real-life problem in the enterprise environment that no
other distro even dealt with). A lot of effort has gone into zypper
since, I think it was a GSoC project too. In 11.1 and 11.4 it works well
and fast. Downloading the repo info is as you expect for a file download
and no slower than Debian (and that always took ages). From various
comments I gather that the dependency resolution algorithms are
non-trivial, and they work well also for 32bit packages on 64bit systems
and with repos set to various priorities. There isn't a speed problem in
11.4 I can see, and you can tune the solver behaviour in
/etc/zypp/zypp.conf to a large degree. Traffic caps may be higher now
but it's still faster to download a delta rpm instead, but you can set
the priorities you want. I increased repo.refresh.delay to several
hours, and if you want to keep more than the last installed kernel,
uncomment multiversion = provides:multiversion(kernel)

Your experience with excruciatingly slow package management is true, but
almost 5 years out of date.

Volker
--
Volker Kuhlmann is list0570 with the domain in header.
http://volker.dnsalias.net/ Please do not CC list postings to me.

_______________________________________________
NZLUG mailing list ***@linux.net.nz
http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nzlug
Shiv Manas
2011-07-30 00:40:19 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, Jul 30, 2011 at 12:33 PM, Volker Kuhlmann
Post by Volker Kuhlmann
Your experience with excruciatingly slow package management is true, but
almost 5 years out of date.
Volker
FYI, when v11.4 came out, I tried it out exclusively for a whole week.
I'm afraid it was still quite slow, especially when compared to
Fedora.

_______________________________________________
NZLUG mailing list ***@linux.net.nz
http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nzlug
Volker Kuhlmann
2011-07-30 01:21:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Shiv Manas
FYI, when v11.4 came out, I tried it out exclusively for a whole week.
I'm afraid it was still quite slow, especially when compared to
Fedora.
Just out of interest, what kind of operation, and with approx what repo
configuration?

Volker
--
Volker Kuhlmann is list0570 with the domain in header.
http://volker.dnsalias.net/ Please do not CC list postings to me.

_______________________________________________
NZLUG mailing list ***@linux.net.nz
http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nzlug
Shiv Manas
2011-07-30 02:24:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Volker Kuhlmann
Post by Shiv Manas
FYI, when v11.4 came out, I tried it out exclusively for a whole week.
I'm afraid it was still quite slow, especially when compared to
Fedora.
Just out of interest, what kind of operation, and with approx what repo
configuration?
Volker
zypper ref, and in general download and installation of common
programs. Default repos were enabled plus packman. Overall, I noticed
that it would take a lot of time to download and cache repo metadata.
Also when installing updates it appeared (speed wise) as if it's
getting the whole RPM instead of the deltas.

_______________________________________________
NZLUG mailing list ***@linux.net.nz
http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nzlug
David L Neil
2011-07-30 00:51:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Foster
For everyone else, thanks for the feedback... sounds like OpenSUSE is worth
trying.
I grabbed the LiveCD Images yesterday and wrote them to USB. They won't
boot :( I was hoping to get away with not burning an actual CD. Might have
to try to find a blank, though...
(I was able to get my Ubuntu 10.10 Netbook Stick to boot fine, so there must
be something odd about the boot-from-USB instructions... When read from
Linux the sticks contain stuff, but are unreadable in Windows 7; by
comparison the Ubuntu stick is infact readable from Windows.)
Sounds like you've already made a decision, but here's my 2c worth:

SuSE Linux were amongst the first moving into desktop marketing. They
put out some v.good boxed sets which included the CD-ROMs and a set of
manuals to (give one the confidence to) get-going. Courtesy of my
professional contacts I was frequently nagged (sorry, 'evangelised')
into using Linux, and so SuSE was 'my first love' (in the Linux world).
The original SuSE guys (Germany) were quietly impressive and v.capable!

As others have suggested I found things a little slow, both wrt updates
and m/c utilisation. I used SuSE both in desktop and server modes and
apart from this had few complaints (related to the distro).

YAST is a GREAT tool. It goes beyond package handling and into
configuration management. As such if you stick within the more common
parameters it will do a lot of set-up work quickly and easily, all from
the comfort of its own GUI. As we all know, this sort of facility is
useful at the start, but can end-up getting somewhat in the way as one's
own knowledge advances and as complexity/demands increase...YMMV!

On the more idealistic front, others have written how SuSE was first
taken-over by Novell (which may have caused a 'slow-down' in and of
itself), and later went over to the dark side in making an alliance with
MSFT. To a degree, coming at 'that' time in my learning/experience, this
encouraged my thoughts to look around at other distros...


Others have detailed the differences in package installation mechanisms
between the Debian-based distros, eg Ubuntu, Mint... and the Red-Hat
hegemony. This choice can have more implications than might first meet
the eye!


The RH hegemony works like this:

1 Fedora is the bleeding edge distro. As with others you can hang-ten on
the bleeding edge or you can stick with the formal distros. The current
release is F15 which features Gnome3 (as a for-instance of edge-yness)
[I'm sticking with F14 for a while longer...] Formal releases are
published at ~six monthly intervals.

2 Red Hat is the commercial form of this Linux and the name of the
company. It benefits from the knowledge and experience gained from
Fedora and offers a more conservative?reliable distro, aiming at
commercial interests with full support and consultancy services. Red Hat
(the company) also offer niche and specific software and services beyond
the distro. Current release is RHEL6 (Red Hat Enterprise Linux).

3 CentOS and SL (Scientific Linux) were born out of a decision some
years ago to take Red Hat commercial - so those who have ideals causing
them to object to SuSE may have once found this 'retreat' from 'open' to
'paid' a little hard to swallow, also. These two 'downstream' distros,
as a generalisation, are 'free' versions of RHEL.

Another downstream version of RHEL is Oracle Linux - also known as
"unbreakable" at various times/guises. A spat developed between the two
'pay' providers, so with RHEL6 Red Hat added a few twists to their
update and support mechanisms, formally stated to prevent Oracle from
riding on their coat-tails for free - or more to the point, for
(Oracle's and unshared) profit.

Sadly this had a consequent impact on the two 'free' downstream
versions. For this and sundry sad internal reasons, it took the CentOS
(volunteers) six<nine months to release the latest CentOS 6.0. This
undoubtedly affected 'brand loyalty'...

CentOS then is a conservatively spec-ed distro, nominally geared to
servers and server rooms. Perversely (oh yes I am!) I have also found it
excellent for small machines and laptops. Traditionally CentOS has been
run from the cmdLN and through SSH. However it comes with Gnome
(default), KDE, and XFCE GUIs on-disk (and quite possibly others) as
well as a full range of both desktop and server software.

SL managed to come out with v6 somewhat sooner than CentOS. This
encouraged me to take a look. It is produced by the Fermi Lab, ie CERN,
iee the folk who brought us (Sir) Tim Berners-Lee, the world-wide web,
and the web browser. As such I expected, but failed to unduly notice, a
bias away from commercial-server and applications. They do concentrate
on clouds plus both BIG DATA and rapid data acquisition. So these guys
know how to put racks and racks of machines together!

I didn't make any leap, sticking with CentOS for servers (and RHEL when
clients can/will pay!) and a few years ago moving more to Fedora for
desktop and dev m/cs (more recent releases of applications and tools).


Debian is another powerful and influential distro. I do not champion it
or claim particular experience. It has also gone through cycles of
updates and delays, and just like the others wrestles with the
to-include or not-to-include questions; and has a stable and
cutting-edge differential to suit one's taste/ambition. Rightly or
wrongly I gained the impression that if one really doesn't want to
muck-about with an OpSys, but just wants to get-things-done, the
distro's philosophy is probably not a good fit...

With a tip of the hat to Mark Shuttleworth and the Ubuntu ppl, I think
that distro is well worthwhile for new converts (from both Win and Mac
worlds). It also suits home-users, who simply want to achieve 'work'
with the higher-level applications (or access their Internet/games with
minimum distraction...).
[having said that, I've dropped greenhorns onto both Fedora and CentOS
with no particular ill-effects - but the choice was largely to suit
their intentions to call upon me for support...]

Please don't assume from that quick observation that I'm talking it
down. Remember any distro can be configured to run as a desktop or a
server, and pretty much any combination of systems and applications s/w
can be made to work (sometimes 'out-of-the-box' and sometimes needing
heavy tools). My impression (again, right or wrong) is that there is
more mention of Ubuntu on New Zealand LUG-lists than any other distro.
Accordingly it would imply the availability of more community-support at
our finger-tips!

If you prefer to have a bit of support at your elbow, I have a similar
impression that there are more Ubuntu books at (my) local book stores,
than there are about other distros.

Contrarily, this situation may change now that Red Hat have opened a New
Zealand office...


I'm sufficiently agnostic and flexible to encourage the use of Linux
without fussing too much over choice of distro, GUI, language, etc.

I will recommend that if you are (likely to be) working with multiple
machines: 99.9% of the time you will add fewer wrinkles/stomach
ulcers/heart-attacks/nervous breakdowns/etc to your score-card if you
keep all your machines either as Debian-variants or all from the RPM/Red
Hat stream!
--
Regards,
=dn

_______________________________________________
NZLUG mailing list ***@linux.net.nz
http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nzlug
Cliff Pratt
2011-07-30 09:19:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by David L Neil
Post by Mark Foster
For everyone else, thanks for the feedback... sounds like OpenSUSE is worth
trying.
I grabbed the LiveCD Images yesterday and wrote them to USB. They won't
boot :( I was hoping to get away with not burning an actual CD. Might
have
to try to find a blank, though...
(I was able to get my Ubuntu 10.10 Netbook Stick to boot fine, so there must
be something odd about the boot-from-USB instructions... When read from
Linux the sticks contain stuff, but are unreadable in Windows 7; by
comparison the Ubuntu stick is infact readable from Windows.)
SuSE Linux were amongst the first moving into desktop marketing. They
put out some v.good boxed sets which included the CD-ROMs and a set of
manuals to (give one the confidence to) get-going. Courtesy of my
professional contacts I was frequently nagged (sorry, 'evangelised')
into using Linux, and so SuSE was 'my first love' (in the Linux world).
The original SuSE guys (Germany) were quietly impressive and v.capable!
As others have suggested I found things a little slow, both wrt updates
and m/c utilisation. I used SuSE both in desktop and server modes and
apart from this had few complaints (related to the distro).
YAST is a GREAT tool. It goes beyond package handling and into
configuration management. As such if you stick within the more common
parameters it will do a lot of set-up work quickly and easily, all from
the comfort of its own GUI. As we all know, this sort of facility is
useful at the start, but can end-up getting somewhat in the way as one's
own knowledge advances and as complexity/demands increase...YMMV!
On the more idealistic front, others have written how SuSE was first
taken-over by Novell (which may have caused a 'slow-down' in and of
itself), and later went over to the dark side in making an alliance with
MSFT. To a degree, coming at 'that' time in my learning/experience, this
encouraged my thoughts to look around at other distros...
Others have detailed the differences in package installation mechanisms
between the Debian-based distros, eg Ubuntu, Mint... and the Red-Hat
hegemony. This choice can have more implications than might first meet
the eye!
1 Fedora is the bleeding edge distro. As with others you can hang-ten on
the bleeding edge or you can stick with the formal distros. The current
release is F15 which features Gnome3 (as a for-instance of edge-yness)
[I'm sticking with F14 for a while longer...] Formal releases are
published at ~six monthly intervals.
2 Red Hat is the commercial form of this Linux and the name of the
company. It benefits from the knowledge and experience gained from
Fedora and offers a more conservative?reliable distro, aiming at
commercial interests with full support and consultancy services. Red Hat
(the company) also offer niche and specific software and services beyond
the distro. Current release is RHEL6 (Red Hat Enterprise Linux).
3 CentOS and SL (Scientific Linux) were born out of a decision some
years ago to take Red Hat commercial - so those who have ideals causing
them to object to SuSE may have once found this 'retreat' from 'open' to
'paid' a little hard to swallow, also. These two 'downstream' distros,
as a generalisation, are 'free' versions of RHEL.
Another downstream version of RHEL is Oracle Linux - also known as
"unbreakable" at various times/guises. A spat developed between the two
'pay' providers, so with RHEL6 Red Hat added a few twists to their
update and support mechanisms, formally stated to prevent Oracle from
riding on their coat-tails for free - or more to the point, for
(Oracle's and unshared) profit.
Sadly this had a consequent impact on the two 'free' downstream
versions. For this and sundry sad internal reasons, it took the CentOS
(volunteers) six<nine months to release the latest CentOS 6.0. This
undoubtedly affected 'brand loyalty'...
CentOS then is a conservatively spec-ed distro, nominally geared to
servers and server rooms. Perversely (oh yes I am!) I have also found it
excellent for small machines and laptops. Traditionally CentOS has been
run from the cmdLN and through SSH. However it comes with Gnome
(default), KDE, and XFCE GUIs on-disk (and quite possibly others) as
well as a full range of both desktop and server software.
SL managed to come out with v6 somewhat sooner than CentOS. This
encouraged me to take a look. It is produced by the Fermi Lab, ie CERN,
iee the folk who brought us (Sir) Tim Berners-Lee, the world-wide web,
and the web browser. As such I expected, but failed to unduly notice, a
bias away from commercial-server and applications. They do concentrate
on clouds plus both BIG DATA and rapid data acquisition. So these guys
know how to put racks and racks of machines together!
I didn't make any leap, sticking with CentOS for servers (and RHEL when
clients can/will pay!) and a few years ago moving more to Fedora for
desktop and dev m/cs (more recent releases of applications and tools).
Debian is another powerful and influential distro. I do not champion it
or claim particular experience. It has also gone through cycles of
updates and delays, and just like the others wrestles with the
to-include or not-to-include questions; and has a stable and
cutting-edge differential to suit one's taste/ambition. Rightly or
wrongly I gained the impression that if one really doesn't want to
muck-about with an OpSys, but just wants to get-things-done, the
distro's philosophy is probably not a good fit...
With a tip of the hat to Mark Shuttleworth and the Ubuntu ppl, I think
that distro is well worthwhile for new converts (from both Win and Mac
worlds). It also suits home-users, who simply want to achieve 'work'
with the higher-level applications (or access their Internet/games with
minimum distraction...).
[having said that, I've dropped greenhorns onto both Fedora and CentOS
with no particular ill-effects - but the choice was largely to suit
their intentions to call upon me for support...]
Please don't assume from that quick observation that I'm talking it
down. Remember any distro can be configured to run as a desktop or a
server, and pretty much any combination of systems and applications s/w
can be made to work (sometimes 'out-of-the-box' and sometimes needing
heavy tools). My impression (again, right or wrong) is that there is
more mention of Ubuntu on New Zealand LUG-lists than any other distro.
Accordingly it would imply the availability of more community-support at
our finger-tips!
If you prefer to have a bit of support at your elbow, I have a similar
impression that there are more Ubuntu books at (my) local book stores,
than there are about other distros.
Contrarily, this situation may change now that Red Hat have opened a New
Zealand office...
I'm sufficiently agnostic and flexible to encourage the use of Linux
without fussing too much over choice of distro, GUI, language, etc.
I will recommend that if you are (likely to be) working with multiple
machines: 99.9% of the time you will add fewer wrinkles/stomach
ulcers/heart-attacks/nervous breakdowns/etc to your score-card if you
keep all your machines either as Debian-variants or all from the RPM/Red
Hat stream!
Nice summary, but you didn't mention Slack. Add that and you have all
the major distros, I think. I'm not a fan of Slack but it deserves
mention. (It was also my first Linux distro....)

Cheers,

Cliff

_______________________________________________
NZLUG mailing list ***@linux.net.nz
http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nzlug
David L Neil
2011-07-30 10:44:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cliff Pratt
Post by Mark Foster
For everyone else, thanks for the feedback... sounds like OpenSUSE is worth
trying.
...
Post by Cliff Pratt
Nice summary,
Thank you


but you didn't mention Slack.

If I had, I wouldn't have been speaking from experience...


Add that and you have all
Post by Cliff Pratt
the major distros, I think. I'm not a fan of Slack but it deserves
mention. (It was also my first Linux distro....)
Yes you are right, it would be interesting to survey the market - but
that's not quite what the OP was asking.

Why don't you pick up the slack?
(oops!)

Does Slackware use RPMs? Is it Gnome-ish? Is it another of the
compile-everything-yourself distros?
--
Regards,
=dn

_______________________________________________
NZLUG mailing list ***@linux.net.nz
http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nzlug
Cliff Pratt
2011-07-31 21:24:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by David L Neil
Post by Cliff Pratt
Post by Mark Foster
For everyone else, thanks for the feedback... sounds like OpenSUSE is worth
trying.
...
Post by Cliff Pratt
Nice summary,
Thank you
but you didn't mention Slack.
If I had, I wouldn't have been speaking from experience...
Add that and you have all
Post by Cliff Pratt
the major distros, I think. I'm not a fan of Slack but it deserves
mention. (It was also my first Linux distro....)
Yes you are right, it would be interesting to survey the market - but
that's not quite what the OP was asking.
Why don't you pick up the slack?
(oops!)
Does Slackware use RPMs? Is it Gnome-ish? Is it another of the
compile-everything-yourself distros?
Well, I've not touched Slack for a while, but here goes. Slack doesn't
use RPMs (unless things have changed). From what I could see the package
system was rudimentary, being, from what I could see, a wrapper for
tarballs. It's Gnomish or KDEish, your choice, and provided you can find
a binary package it's not "compile everything yourself".

It would be nice if a Slack expert could confirm or deny the above.

Cheers,

Cliff

_______________________________________________
NZLUG mailing list ***@linux.net.nz
http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nzlug
Ryan
2011-08-01 00:01:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cliff Pratt
Post by David L Neil
Does Slackware use RPMs? Is it Gnome-ish? Is it another of the
compile-everything-yourself distros?
Well, I've not touched Slack for a while, but here goes. Slack doesn't
use RPMs (unless things have changed).
Last time I checked (around 2007) Slackware had the 'rpm' command as
an optional package in the installation disc but did nothinhg to provide
a database of installed software for it. If you did try installing an RPM
package it would have to list all of its dependancies by file name rather
than package name.
Post by Cliff Pratt
From what I could see the package
system was rudimentary, being, from what I could see, a wrapper for
tarballs.
Tar balls containing binary object files and no dependancy information.
You're expercted to know what you need to have a running system.
Post by Cliff Pratt
It's Gnomish or KDEish, your choice, and provided you can find
XFCE + assorted windowing managers unless you get the full DVD. Once
again my information is somewhat dated.
Post by Cliff Pratt
It would be nice if a Slack expert could confirm or deny the above.
I did slackware for a while but found it impractical and switched to Fedora,
got sick of their reckless experimentation on the user base and am now
slowly shifting over to Arch.

_______________________________________________
NZLUG mailing list ***@linux.net.nz
http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nzlug
David L Neil
2011-07-30 00:58:09 UTC
Permalink
Jaco,
Post by Jaco
Post by Mark Foster
I'd appreciate opinions from the masses
What about going "hard core" & ditching linux in favor of BSD, the
*real* beardie-guy's OS?
I've been having a lot of fun in FreeBSD recently & getting a lot of
mileage out of some OS/X with MacPorts installed.
I'm running a VM (VBox) on this system to fill in the gaps, so there's
not a lot I'm missing.
May be a totally different way to go?
The BSDs have traditionally made claims for stronger attitudes to
security and servers. FreeBSD and PC-BSD have made in-roads into the
desktop market.

Do they have as rapid update cycles (both systems and applications s/w)
as the Linux distros? eg version of Firefox

How do their update mechanisms compare with RPM/Apt?

For which applications do you eschew BSD and rely upon VM-ed Linux (or
whatever)?

Are BSD machines inherently faster or slower than popular Linux distros?

Where do they stand (comparatively) on the support of hardware - both at
the newer and older ends of the spectrum?

Of which other points-of-comparison should one be aware?
--
Regards,
=dn

_______________________________________________
NZLUG mailing list ***@linux.net.nz
http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nzlug
Robin Paulson
2011-07-30 03:42:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by David L Neil
The BSDs have traditionally made claims for stronger attitudes to
security and servers. FreeBSD and PC-BSD have made in-roads into the
desktop market.
partly due to obscurity/small user-base?
Post by David L Neil
Are BSD machines inherently faster or slower than popular Linux distros?
i saw the results of a test done in debian - one computer had the linux
kernel, one the kfreebsd kernel. linux was noticeably faster most of the
time, bsd on the odd occasion. i think it was on slashdot
Post by David L Neil
Of which other points-of-comparison should one be aware?
support of features where bsd is different to linux. the user community
is so much smaller, i imagine getting answers to a question will be more
difficult
--
robin

http://bumblepuppy.org/blog/?p=237 - government bill to remove basic
human rights in NZ

_______________________________________________
NZLUG mailing list ***@linux.net.nz
http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nzlug
Nick Rout
2011-08-01 04:49:11 UTC
Permalink
Jaco,
Post by Jaco
Post by Mark Foster
I'd appreciate opinions from the masses
What about going "hard core" & ditching linux in favor of BSD, the
*real* beardie-guy's OS?
I've been having a lot of fun in FreeBSD recently & getting a lot of
mileage out of some OS/X with MacPorts installed.
I'm running a VM (VBox) on this system to fill in the gaps, so there's
not a lot I'm missing.
May be a totally different way to go?
The BSDs have traditionally made claims for stronger attitudes to security
and servers. FreeBSD and PC-BSD have made in-roads into the desktop market.
Do they have as rapid update cycles (both systems and applications s/w) as
the Linux distros? eg version of Firefox
They do, very much so. firefox is at 5.01
How do their update mechanisms compare with RPM/Apt?
favourably IMHO.
For which applications do you eschew BSD and rely upon VM-ed Linux (or
whatever)?
Are BSD machines inherently faster or slower than popular Linux distros?
subjectively faster in my experience, but it is very subjective. Never
done any objective tests.
Where do they stand (comparatively) on the support of hardware - both at the
newer and older ends of the spectrum?
possibly not as good as linux from a hardware perspective.
Of which other points-of-comparison should one be aware?
I am sure google would help you find comparisons.
--
Regards,
=dn
_______________________________________________
http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nzlug
_______________________________________________
NZLUG mailing list ***@linux.net.nz
http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nzlug
Robin Paulson
2011-08-01 04:58:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nick Rout
Post by David L Neil
Are BSD machines inherently faster or slower than popular Linux distros?
subjectively faster in my experience, but it is very subjective. Never
done any objective tests.
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=debian_kfreebsd&num=1
--
robin

http://bumblepuppy.org/blog/?p=237 - government bill to remove basic
human rights in NZ

_______________________________________________
NZLUG mailing list ***@linux.net.nz
http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nzlug
Bruce Clement
2011-08-01 05:30:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by David L Neil
Are BSD machines inherently faster or slower than popular Linux distros?
subjectively faster in my experience, but it is very subjective. Never
done any objective tests.
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.**php?page=article&item=debian_**
kfreebsd&num=1<http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=debian_kfreebsd&num=1>
debian kfreebsd isn't FreeBSD. It's the freebsd kernel with a completely
different userland to freebsd.

http://wiki.debian.org/Debian_GNU/kFreeBSD
http://glibc-bsd.alioth.debian.org/TODO

Linux is the operating system kernel. Debian, Redhat, Suse, Ubuntu, etc. are
operating systems.
FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, PC-BSD etc are complete operating systems. They
each contain a kernel and a whole lot of utilities.
--
Bruce Clement

Home: http://www.clement.co.nz/
Twitter: http://twitter.com/Bruce_Clement
Directory: http://www.searchme.co.nz/

"Before attempting to create something new, it is vital to have a good
appreciation of everything that already exists in this field." Mikhail
Kalashnikov
_______________________________________________
NZLUG mailing list ***@linux.net.nz
http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nzlug
Robin Paulson
2011-08-01 21:52:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bruce Clement
debian kfreebsd isn't FreeBSD. It's the freebsd kernel with a
completely
different userland to freebsd.
thanks, i'm aware of that.

my point is that the only way to objectively compare the bsd *kernel*
with the linux *kernel* is for all other parts of the OS (and yes, i
realise a kernel is not the same as an OS - although some would
disagree) to be identical, or you're trying to compare apples with
wheelbarrows.

we may be arguing semantics here
Post by Bruce Clement
http://wiki.debian.org/Debian_GNU/kFreeBSD
http://glibc-bsd.alioth.debian.org/TODO
Linux is the operating system kernel. Debian, Redhat, Suse, Ubuntu, etc. are
operating systems.
FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, PC-BSD etc are complete operating systems. They
each contain a kernel and a whole lot of utilities.
--
robin

http://bumblepuppy.org/blog/?p=237 - government bill to remove basic
human rights in NZ

_______________________________________________
NZLUG mailing list ***@linux.net.nz
http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nzlug
Bruce Clement
2011-08-02 01:56:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robin Paulson
Post by Bruce Clement
debian kfreebsd isn't FreeBSD. It's the freebsd kernel with a completely
different userland to freebsd.
thanks, i'm aware of that.
my point is that the only way to objectively compare the bsd *kernel* with
the linux *kernel* is for all other parts of the OS (and yes, i realise a
kernel is not the same as an OS - although some would disagree) to be
identical, or you're trying to compare apples with wheelbarrows.
Except the freeBSD kernel and freeBSD userland are tuned to work together
well, while GNU / Debian userland is probably not tuned to run well with the
freeBSD kernel & vice versa.

Given that the Debian kfreebsd project isn't 100% feature complete yet, I'd
be surprised if they have made much of an attempt at tuning. They may do
this at a later date.

In any case you run a complete operating system, not a kernel. Even
differerent (BusyBox | Gnu ) Linux distros that are all alledgedly made from
the same sources can have different performance characteristics. Remember
the Yoper distribution? It was tuned for speed on i586s (or was that i686?).
They did this by a number of things, dropping support for ancient CPUs &
pre-linking libraries are two that come to mind.
--
Bruce Clement

Home: http://www.clement.co.nz/
Twitter: http://twitter.com/Bruce_Clement
Directory: http://www.searchme.co.nz/

"Before attempting to create something new, it is vital to have a good
appreciation of everything that already exists in this field." Mikhail
Kalashnikov
_______________________________________________
NZLUG mailing list ***@linux.net.nz
http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nzlug
Continue reading on narkive:
Loading...