Microsoft hates Open Source

[Zarek Jenkinson]

"Microsoft has raised the ire of the open source community with its Windows
Marketplace licence by specifically refusing to allow software covered under
an open licence to be
distributed<http://www.thinq.co.uk/2011/2/17/microsoft-bans-open-source-marketplace/>.
The licence, which anyone wishing to distribute Windows, Windows Phone, or
Xbox applications through the company's copy of Apple's App Store is
required to agree to, is the usual torrent of legalese — but hides a nasty
surprise for those who support open source ideals."
Well, that sucks. I say Microsoft can go stick their Marketplace up their
ass.

[Bruce Kingsbury]

I approve. Better this than wrap it in DRM and violate the GPL. Apple have
already been there with VLC?

They're denying themselves some of the best software too. Good luck to
them...

--
Sent from my Ideos!

Post by Zarek Jenkinson
"Microsoft has raised the ire of the open source community with its Windows
Marketplace licence by specifically refusing to allow software covered under
an open licence to be
distributed<

http://www.thinq.co.uk/2011/2/17/microsoft-bans-open-source-marketplace/>.

Post by Zarek Jenkinson
The licence, which anyone wishing to distribute Windows, Windows Phone, or
Xbox applications through the company's copy of Apple's App Store is
required to agree to, is the usual torrent of legalese — but hides a nasty
surprise for those who support open source ideals."
Well, that sucks. I say Microsoft can go stick their Marketplace up their
ass.
--
Zarek Jenkinson
([phone]
http://eltulefngapeveng.co.cc
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[Phillip Hutchings]

Post by Bruce Kingsbury
I approve. Better this than wrap it in DRM and violate the GPL. Apple have
already been there with VLC?

Only GPLv3, due to the anti-TiVoisation clauses. GPLv2 is app store compatible.
--
Phillip Hutchings
***@sitharus.com

[Anthony Chapman]

Post by Phillip Hutchings
GPLv2 is app store compatible.

Not it isn't. The Apple App Store's term of service place restrictions
on redistribution, this isn't allowed by any version of the GPL.

Some copylefted software is available on the App Store anyway because
the creator's want it to be so ignore the conflicting requirements.
Other copylefted software has been made available by someone who
ported it, but then withdrawn when the original author pointed out the
licence infringment to Apple.

The Android Market is compatible with all GPL versions.

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/networking/android-vs-iphone-the-gpl-question/535

http://lwn.net/Articles/396535/

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[Robin Paulson]

Post by Zarek Jenkinson
Xbox applications through the company's copy of Apple's App Store is

Copy of Apple's app store?

I'm sure there was someone who previously tried the 'let's put all our
software in one place, and allow a user to install it through a simple
GUI' approach, if only i could remember who it was?

Apple, MS and Android have so diluted the concept, that it loses most
of it's power (to the user) and usefulness, and replaced it with a
control-freak approach that would have been worthy of MS at their
worst in the mid-late 1990s.

The approach seems to be:
1. wait for the masses to create a wonderfully powerful concept;
2. take that concept, strip out all the bits which empower the user,
polish the remainder like crazy and engage the hype machine;
3. profit. no seriously, profit in a big way

there's endless history of this sort of behaviour, particularly in
technology. see also:
the web -> facebook/myspace
napster -> itunes
the original (non-corporate) youtube -> the google (and record-company
friendly) youtube
--
robin

http://tangleball.org.nz/ - Auckland's Creative Space
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http://bumblepuppy.org/blog/

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[Nevyn]

Post by Robin Paulson

Post by Zarek Jenkinson
Xbox applications through the company's copy of Apple's App Store is

Copy of Apple's app store?
I'm sure there was someone who previously tried the 'let's put all our
software in one place, and allow a user to install it through a simple
GUI' approach, if only i could remember who it was?

Scary point. Given that I've been touting on about how the other OSes
seem incapable of coming up with a unified upgrade system. i.e. to
upgrade flash, a little flashing icon tells me to do so in my task
bar. To update Open Office.org, the application tells me there are
updates available with I open it. To update the OS, I have to either
wait for the message telling me it's going to update now which forces
me to then reboot or try and kick it off manually. To update nVidia
drivers, I have to go to the vendor's website.

In Ubuntu, I do a "sudo apt-get update ; sudo apt-get upgrade -y"

So for the Windows world I've been wondering how you could sort this
out given the restrictive licensing and all the other little barriers.

Bring on a marketplace. Where the problems are sort of dealt with but
the restrictions become worse. On the plus side, it's not the only way
to install software on the OS (unlike the iphone and ipad etc.) - or
rather, not the only way without breaking agreements around the use of
the hardware.

Regards,
Nevyn
http://nevsramblings.blogspot.com/

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[Robin Paulson]

Post by Nevyn
Scary point. Given that I've been touting on about how the other OSes
seem incapable of coming up with a unified upgrade system. i.e. to
upgrade flash, a little flashing icon tells me to do so in my task
bar. To update Open Office.org, the application tells me there are
updates available with I open it. To update the OS, I have to either
wait for the message telling me it's going to update now which forces
me to then reboot or try and kick it off manually. To update nVidia
drivers, I have to go to the vendor's website.
In Ubuntu, I do a "sudo apt-get update ; sudo apt-get upgrade -y"
So for the Windows world I've been wondering how you could sort this
out given the restrictive licensing and all the other little barriers.

you can't - that's the whole point. partly this is due to licensing -
'no you can't redistribute our binaries', necessitating clunky
download scripts pointing to a possibly moving target, partly due to a
lot of applications not having a silent install mode. someone in the
windows world produced a website and app called 'win-get' a couple of
years back, and it was awful and pointless for these very reasons.

Post by Nevyn
Bring on a marketplace. Where the problems are sort of dealt with but
the restrictions become worse. On the plus side, it's not the only way
to install software on the OS (unlike the iphone and ipad etc.) - or
rather, not the only way without breaking agreements around the use of
the hardware.

well, yes. they've taken the wonders of repositories, which prevent
all that 'download the installer file to the desktop and then run it'
shit, which simplifies things for the user, but have almost entirely
removed any notion of choice * or user control.

and the suckers who pay for the things buy into the bling and ignore
the bigger issue of loss of control

at some point, it will be the only way to install software on all these devices.

* being able to choose between 6 different apps which make farting
noises doesn't count as choice
--
robin

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[Robert Coup]

Because the WP7 appstore includes DRM and doesn't have a download-source
facility, Microsoft *can't* legally distribute GPL'd software. Apple can't
either.

The way some app have got around it is by dual-licensing (proprietary or a
non-Copyleft OSS license for the app-stores, as well as GPL for the code).

Or Apple & MS could get off their butts and incorporate the ability to add a
"source code is available at" field to the app submission, so they can
follow the rules.

Rob :)
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[Atom Smasher]

Post by Robert Coup
Because the WP7 appstore includes DRM and doesn't have a download-source
facility, Microsoft *can't* legally distribute GPL'd software. Apple
can't either.

=======================

oh, boo-hoo... "our system doesn't support that". well, why do you think
they MADE a system that doesn't support that?
--
...atom

________________________
http://atom.smasher.org/
762A 3B98 A3C3 96C9 C6B7 582A B88D 52E4 D9F5 7808
-------------------------------------------------

"Who controls the past controls the future.
Who controls the present controls the past."
-- George Orwell

1) Culture always builds on the past.
2) The past always tries to control the future.
3) Our future is becoming less free.
4) To build free societies you must limit the control of the past.
-- A Remixer's Manifesto


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[Robin Paulson]

Post by Robert Coup
Because the WP7 appstore includes DRM and doesn't have a download-source
facility, Microsoft *can't* legally distribute GPL'd software. Apple can't
either.

i'm going to take issue with your language there - 'can't' implies MS
and apple are externally constrained. they chose to force DRM on their
users

Post by Robert Coup
The way some app have got around it is by dual-licensing (proprietary or a
non-Copyleft OSS license for the app-stores, as well as GPL for the code).

that's an interesting approach - i assume there is a note somewhere on
the app pointing the user to the source code? and that the two
versions are code identical?

Post by Robert Coup
Or Apple & MS could get off their butts and incorporate the ability to add a
"source code is available at" field to the app submission, so they can
follow the rules.

ha. i think this is less of a lazy choice, and more 'not in a million
years do we let our users have that sort of control over the device
they rent from us'
--
robin

http://tangleball.org.nz/ - Auckland's Creative Space
http://openstreetmap.org.nz/ - Open Street Map New Zealand
http://bumblepuppy.org/blog/

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[Nick Rout]

On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 10:13 AM, Robert Coup

Post by Robert Coup
Because the WP7 appstore includes DRM and doesn't have a download-source
facility, Microsoft *can't* legally distribute GPL'd software. Apple can't
either.
The way some app have got around it is by dual-licensing (proprietary or a
non-Copyleft OSS license for the app-stores, as well as GPL for the code).
Or Apple & MS could get off their butts and incorporate the ability to add a
"source code is available at" field to the app submission, so they can
follow the rules.

Under GPL2 they need to more than point to the source code, they need to
have it available for download themselves, not just a pointer to the
developer's page:

"If distribution of executable or object code is made by offering access to
copy from a designated place, then offering equivalent access to copy the
source code from the same place counts as distribution of the source code,
even though third parties are notacompelled to copy the source along with
the object code."
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[Robert Coup]

Hi Nick,

Post by Nick Rout
Under GPL2 they need to more than point to the source code, they need to
have it available for download themselves, not just a pointer to the
"If distribution of executable or object code is made by offering access to
copy from a designated place, then offering equivalent access to copy the
source code from the same place counts as distribution of the source code,
even though third parties are notacompelled to copy the source along with
the object code."

You're right :)

But it means its very unlikely that source-downloading would make it into
version 1 of a marketplace where the vast majority of developers don't use
OSS licensing... I suspect if developers keep pushing it'll happen
eventually, just like any other feature.

I'm not pro-MS or pro-Apple here - I'm just pointing out that until there is
a facility for source downloading built into the app store, MS/Apple can't
distribute GPL software. And if the people who need that make up only a
small %age of app developers, it'll take a while for that feature to rise to
the top of the appstore ToDo list. Regardless of whether the company is
pro-OSS, anti-OSS, or doesn't care.

Once we get a bit further down the track and developers keep bringing it up,
we'll see whether it's being actively refused.

Rob :)
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[Robert Coup]

And yes, it does piss me off immensely that great software like OpenVPN
isn't available on iPhone (& presumably WP7) for that very reason - despite
developers wanting to build apps and the code being available for them to do
it.

Rob :)
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[Bruce Clement]

On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 11:16 AM, Robert Coup

Post by Robert Coup
Hi Nick,

[...]

Post by Robert Coup
I'm not pro-MS or pro-Apple here - I'm just pointing out that until there is
a facility for source downloading built into the app store, MS/Apple can't
distribute GPL software.

Not quite. They have to make the source available. This doesn't have
to be through the app store though, it could be through another web
site they have, or they could even contract a third party to make the
source available on their behalf.

Regards
--
Bruce Clement

Home:    http://www.clement.co.nz/
Twitter:    http://twitter.com/Bruce_Clement
Google Buzz: http://www.google.com/profiles/aotearoanz

"Before attempting to create something new, it is vital to have a good
appreciation of everything that already exists in this field." Mikhail
Kalashnikov

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[Robin Paulson]

Post by Robert Coup
Once we get a bit further down the track and developers keep bringing it up,
we'll see whether it's being actively refused.

the tendency in these situations is generally that as bling and
ease-of-use increases, so number of users goes up and people are less
inclined to be interested in the more sophisticated potential.
consider that your average iphone/window 7 user is not going to be
doing VPN or SSH, but will want to do facebook and twitter, read the
paper and email each other. the percentage will be low, and MS will
stick with their tactic, as apple did

maybe you want an openmoko freerunner or its successor the GTA04, with
all the goodness of a full debian repo?

http://projects.goldelico.com/p/gta04-main/
--
robin

http://tangleball.org.nz/ - Auckland's Creative Space
http://openstreetmap.org.nz/ - Open Street Map New Zealand
http://bumblepuppy.org/blog/

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[Rob Connolly]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Post by Robin Paulson
maybe you want an openmoko freerunner or its successor the GTA04, with
all the goodness of a full debian repo?
http://projects.goldelico.com/p/gta04-main/

Or you could check out the FDroid repository client for Android, which
has source code downloads and licence information built in.

http://f-droid.org/repository/

Cheers,

Rob
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[Mark Foster]

Post by Rob Connolly
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Post by Robin Paulson
maybe you want an openmoko freerunner or its successor the GTA04, with
all the goodness of a full debian repo?
http://projects.goldelico.com/p/gta04-main/

Or you could check out the FDroid repository client for Android, which
has source code downloads and licence information built in.
http://f-droid.org/repository/

Or, if you're like me and sit more in the 'power user' category than the
'coder' category, you want an un-hindered tool that'll give you the
flexibility you need without having to jump to the 'write your own code'
level.

(I say this having no practical experience with Android or the options
available within it, but having reservations about Google that get
vindicated from time to time...)



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[Robin Paulson]

Post by Mark Foster

Post by Rob Connolly

Post by Robin Paulson
maybe you want an openmoko freerunner or its successor the GTA04, with
all the goodness of a full debian repo?
http://projects.goldelico.com/p/gta04-main/

Or you could check out the FDroid repository client for Android, which
has source code downloads and licence information built in.
http://f-droid.org/repository/

Or, if you're like me and sit more in the 'power user' category than the
'coder' category, you want an un-hindered tool that'll give you the
flexibility you need without having to jump to the 'write your own code'
level.
(I say this having no practical experience with Android or the options
available within it, but having reservations about Google that get
vindicated from time to time...)

this all brings up the question:
do the android phones allow one to install an arbitrary OS, e.g. debian, etc?

or have they done the signed images bullshit that brought on the GPLv3?
--
robin

http://tangleball.org.nz/ - Auckland's Creative Space
http://openstreetmap.org.nz/ - Open Street Map New Zealand
http://bumblepuppy.org/blog/

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[Rob Connolly]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Post by Robin Paulson
do the android phones allow one to install an arbitrary OS, e.g. debian, etc?
or have they done the signed images bullshit that brought on the GPLv3?

Well, I have CyanogenMod installed on mine, not the original HTC
firmware. Making the change was really easy.

I think you'd have trouble installing a straight Linux distro on them.
There are quite a lot of kernel changes in the Android kernel that
aren't in the main-line.

Then there's userspace (gnome on a 4in touchscreen anyone?).

Rob
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[Robin Paulson]

Post by Rob Connolly
Well, I have CyanogenMod installed on mine, not the original HTC
firmware. Making the change was really easy.
I think you'd have trouble installing a straight Linux distro on them.
There are quite a lot of kernel changes in the Android kernel that
aren't in the main-line.

i heard google were working to merge their kernel and mainline - have
they not submitted patches, drivers, etc.?

Post by Rob Connolly
Then there's userspace (gnome on a 4in touchscreen anyone?).

that's not insurmountable, with the number of phone-centric desktop
environments in debian (the openmoko software for instance is in
-stable now)
--
robin

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[Phillip Hutchings]

Post by Robin Paulson
do the android phones allow one to install an arbitrary OS, e.g. debian, etc?
or have they done the signed images bullshit that brought on the GPLv3?

Some do, some don't, and documentation is poor for most non-google phones.

--
Phillip Hutchings
***@sitharus.com