Clean laptops for Linux.

[Daniel Reurich]

Hi,

Is their reasonable interest withing this community for portable devices
(tablets, netbooks, notebooks and laptops) without the usual bundled
proprietary software?

I ask because I am working on a potential arrangement whereby I will be
able to get some product into NZ without any bundled OS licenses, and
I'm trying to work out whether I can do so at prices and in volumes that
would make this a worthwhile.



Regards,

[Bruce Clement]

Post by Daniel Reurich
Hi,

Hi Daniel,

Post by Daniel Reurich
Is their reasonable interest withing this community for portable devices
(tablets, netbooks, notebooks and laptops) without the usual bundled
proprietary software?

Obviously I can't speak for the others here, but my take on buying laptops
(and by extension other portable devices) is that I test them out in the
shop on a bootable CD/DVD and then reformat them while installing my
preferred OS once I have them home.

I tend not to buy leading edge hardware and am price conscious.

While I would rather not pay for an operating system I'm not going to use, I
wouldn't pay more for a laptop without an OS than I would for one I was
going to wipe.

Post by Daniel Reurich
I ask because I am working on a potential arrangement whereby I will be
able to get some product into NZ without any bundled OS licenses, and I'm
trying to work out whether I can do so at prices and in volumes that would
make this a worthwhile.

Given that the big boys can command deep discounts it's going to be very
difficult to match their prices.

I would (and have on desktops) paid extra to have Ubuntu and Kubuntu
pre-installed. My logic there is that the responsibility for making sure
that the hardware has appropriate drivers etc then rests with the supplier.
Get the pricing right on this and I may be interested.

HTH

Bruce
--
Bruce Clement

Home: http://www.clement.co.nz/
Twitter: http://twitter.com/Bruce_Clement
Directory: http://www.searchme.co.nz/

"Before attempting to create something new, it is vital to have a good
appreciation of everything that already exists in this field." Mikhail
Kalashnikov
_______________________________________________
NZLUG mailing list ***@linux.net.nz
http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nzlug

[Shiv Manas]

Post by Daniel Reurich
Hi,
Is their reasonable interest withing this community for portable devices
(tablets, netbooks, notebooks and laptops) without the usual bundled
proprietary software?
I ask because I am working on a potential arrangement whereby I will be able
to get some product into NZ without any bundled OS licenses, and I'm trying
to work out whether I can do so at prices and in volumes that would make
this a worthwhile.
Regards,
--
Daniel Reurich
Centurion Computer Technology (2005) Ltd
Ph: 021 797 722

Hi Daniel,

I see inquiries regarding OS-free laptops every once in a while, in
this and other lists such as AuckLUG's. Infact if you might recollect,
I myself was interested in buying such a netbook recently (until I was
gifted one).

There have been other providers of such machines in the past, but the
problem, in my opinion is the lack of general interest, model choices
and more importantly - the pricing, which is why I always ended up
buying a retail machine.

Assuming the best case scenario, how much would you reckon would be
the price difference between a similarly spec'd retail device and the
ones you're ordering? (Also, a worst-case scenario price difference
will be interesting to know). Personally I would buy such a device if
it was cheaper by alteast $100.

I also echo and agree with all the the points raised by Bruce. It
would be hard to compete against the aggressive pricing


Regards,
Shiv

_______________________________________________
NZLUG mailing list ***@linux.net.nz
http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nzlug

[Nevyn]

Post by Bruce Clement
Hi Daniel,
I see inquiries regarding OS-free laptops every once in a while, in
this and other lists such as AuckLUG's. Infact if you might recollect,
I myself was interested in buying such a netbook recently (until I was
gifted one).
There have been other providers of such machines in the past, but the
problem, in my opinion is the lack of general interest, model choices
and more importantly - the pricing, which is why I always ended up
buying a retail machine.
Assuming the best case scenario, how much would you reckon would be
the price difference between a similarly spec'd retail device and the
ones you're ordering? (Also, a worst-case scenario price difference
will be interesting to know). Personally I would buy such a device if
it was cheaper by alteast $100.
I also echo and agree with all the the points raised by Bruce. It
would be hard to compete against the aggressive pricing
Regards,
Shiv

Personally I think the problem is range.

Whenever I see Linux/Naked laptop offerings, it's on a very limited
range of machines. Either it's horribly under spec'ed hardware where
they're trying to sell you on price or it's on horribly over spec'ed
hardware which costs 3 to 5 times as much as I'd spend on a machine.

Of course, this is all opinion but I suspect that you're going to find
more opinions than you are available products.

Much as I'd love to be able to buy OS'less machines...

Remember the early days of the netbook? The Linux equivalents were the
same price as their Windows counterparts but normally had an added
feature - either bigger hard drive or more ram. Wouldn't it be great
to be able to do something very similar again? Personally, it's not
the price of the Windows license that annoys me. it's the fact that
I'm having to buy something that I have absolutely no intention or
desire to use.

Regards,
Nevyn
http://nevsramblings.blogspot.com/

_______________________________________________
NZLUG mailing list ***@linux.net.nz
http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nzlug

[Daniel Reurich]

Post by Bruce Clement

Post by Daniel Reurich
Hi,
Is their reasonable interest withing this community for portable devices
(tablets, netbooks, notebooks and laptops) without the usual bundled
proprietary software?
I ask because I am working on a potential arrangement whereby I will be able
to get some product into NZ without any bundled OS licenses, and I'm trying
to work out whether I can do so at prices and in volumes that would make
this a worthwhile.
Regards,
--
Daniel Reurich
Centurion Computer Technology (2005) Ltd
Ph: 021 797 722

Hi Daniel,
I see inquiries regarding OS-free laptops every once in a while, in
this and other lists such as AuckLUG's. Infact if you might recollect,
I myself was interested in buying such a netbook recently (until I was
gifted one).
There have been other providers of such machines in the past, but the
problem, in my opinion is the lack of general interest, model choices
and more importantly - the pricing, which is why I always ended up
buying a retail machine.
Assuming the best case scenario, how much would you reckon would be
the price difference between a similarly spec'd retail device and the
ones you're ordering? (Also, a worst-case scenario price difference
will be interesting to know). Personally I would buy such a device if
it was cheaper by alteast $100.
I also echo and agree with all the the points raised by Bruce. It
would be hard to compete against the aggressive pricing

Hi Shiv,

Why would it have to be $100 cheaper? What value does a windows license
add if you intend to run linux on it anyway?

What if it was the same price for the same spec'd product and it came
installed with Ubuntu. Fedora or Debian installed?

What if it came with nothing installed but an assurance that the latest
Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora release had been tested and was compatible and
all the hardware worked with no fuss and bother?

This is what I am trying to ascertain. Is pricing the deciding factor,
or are there other considerations like compatibility that are more
important?

Regards,

[yuri]

Post by Daniel Reurich
What if it came with nothing installed but an assurance that the latest
Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora release had been tested and was compatible
and all the hardware worked with no fuss and bother?
This is what I am trying to ascertain.  Is pricing the deciding factor, or
are there other considerations like compatibility that are more
important?

Tested and guaranteed compatibility are #1.
Price is a close second.
Spec comes in just behind price at a close 3rd.

That 3rd point is important. I wouldn't by a laptop that was only
linux compatible and cheap because they left out stuff like wireless
or decent graphics.

Yuri

_______________________________________________
NZLUG mailing list ***@linux.net.nz
http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nzlug

[Volker Kuhlmann]

Post by Daniel Reurich
Why would it have to be $100 cheaper? What value does a windows
license add if you intend to run linux on it anyway?

It permits the M$ shills to say "X billion dozers sold", including
those that went straight to /dev/null.
It puts dosh into the wrong people's hands.
It's not that the useless license doesn't add anything, it does take
value away (in $$ to someone) instead of putting better hardware into my
pocket, which is real value to me.

Post by Daniel Reurich
What if it was the same price for the same spec'd product and it
came installed with Ubuntu. Fedora or Debian installed?

Completely pointless to me, as I'd wipe any pre-installed Linux anyway.
I'd be reluctant to pay for something I didn't need or want. The only
value in that would be to show that all the hardware parts are
Linux-supported. Minor value in showing how (driver, config, etc) they
are supported. A web product support page would show the same info (even
after I'd wiped it and the new one didn't work.

Pre-installed Linux is no value to me, but I can see it to be useful to
those who actually made use of it. Still there will be a perception
problem (Why is this Linux lappy the same price as the doze version? I
thought Linux was free?)

Post by Daniel Reurich
What if it came with nothing installed but an assurance that the
latest Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora release had been tested and was
compatible and all the hardware worked with no fuss and bother?

Valuable! A real time saver. But the equivalent price of the doze
version is probably still a bit of a ceiling.

Volker

[Shiv Manas]

On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 12:30 AM, Daniel Reurich

Post by Daniel Reurich
Hi Shiv,
Why would it have to be $100 cheaper?  What value does a windows license add
if you intend to run linux on it anyway?
What if it was the same price for the same spec'd product and it came
installed with Ubuntu. Fedora or Debian installed?
What if it came with nothing installed but an assurance that the latest
Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora release had been tested and was compatible and all
the hardware worked with no fuss and bother?
This is what I am trying to ascertain.  Is pricing the deciding factor, or
are there other considerations like compatibility that are more important?
Regards,
--
Daniel Reurich
Centurion Computer Technology (2005) Ltd
Ph: 021 797 722
From an end user point of view - shouldn't a machine without a Windows

license be comparatively cheaper? Afterall, a retail copy of Win 7
Home Premium costs $360, so isn't it reasonable to expect a
Windows-free machine to be cheaper by atleast $100?

Also, a lot of portables that I come across these days seem to be
fully compatible with modern distros. Checking compatibility is as
simple as booting a Live USB and test if the WiFi, webcam, Fn keys and
suspend works - takes around five minutes.

Finally, Windows machines have a higher resale value. Having a Windows
license helps when you buy a laptop with the intention of selling it
within a couple of years (like I do). Also, brands that are unheard of
will not sell well. Therefore I expect such a product to be cheaper
than retail models.

_______________________________________________
NZLUG mailing list ***@linux.net.nz
http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nzlug

[Jethro Carr]

Post by Daniel Reurich
From an end user point of view - shouldn't a machine without a Windows
license be comparatively cheaper? Afterall, a retail copy of Win 7
Home Premium costs $360, so isn't it reasonable to expect a
Windows-free machine to be cheaper by atleast $100?

Not necessarily - IT services are expensive, if a company has to spend
an hour per machine getting them up and running with your selected
hardware options and pre-installing Linux, this would influence the
cost.

Also, your pricing is out of date, Windows 7 OEM Home Premium sells for
$140+GST and a big vendor would be paying less I expect....

Post by Daniel Reurich
Also, a lot of portables that I come across these days seem to be
fully compatible with modern distros. Checking compatibility is as
simple as booting a Live USB and test if the WiFi, webcam, Fn keys and
suspend works - takes around five minutes.

The issue is when things don't work 100% to be expected and the seller
of a Linux laptop will need to invest in debugging and resolving them.

Sure, some models are a complete yes/no to working, but others will have
much more subtle issues that need investment into debugging - such as
laptops that crash on the 10th suspend, laptops that glitch only on
undocking, wifi cards that keep dropping, etc, etc

Post by Daniel Reurich
Finally, Windows machines have a higher resale value. Having a Windows
license helps when you buy a laptop with the intention of selling it
within a couple of years (like I do). Also, brands that are unheard of
will not sell well. Therefore I expect such a product to be cheaper
than retail models.

Yes, this is totally a valid point.


I've never brought a Linux only laptop, even though I'd very much like
to, simply because they consist of budget models or models that are
unappealing to me.

Whilst I dislike paying Microsoft for unused software, I dislike
carrying around a large chunky laptop instead of my chosen ultralight.


Whilst I like Daniel's idea, I'm not sure if the market is really there
to make such a venture worthwhile - geeks tend to want specific models
of machines.

regards,
jethro

[Hadley Rich]

Post by Jethro Carr
I've never brought a Linux only laptop, even though I'd very much like
to, simply because they consist of budget models or models that are
unappealing to me.
Whilst I dislike paying Microsoft for unused software, I dislike
carrying around a large chunky laptop instead of my chosen ultralight.

I agree, this is a very valid point.

Post by Jethro Carr
Whilst I like Daniel's idea, I'm not sure if the market is really
there to make such a venture worthwhile - geeks tend to want specific
models of machines.

Indeed. We've tried to sell Linux laptops for several years with supply
coming and going. Even when we had supply (we don't now), the choice was
limited and so was interest.

hads

[Roger Irwin]

This cost will also be off-set as hardware vendors get paid for
installing trialware.

Post by Jethro Carr
Also, your pricing is out of date, Windows 7 OEM Home Premium sells for
$140+GST and a big vendor would be paying less I expect....

_______________________________________________
NZLUG mailing list ***@linux.net.nz
http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nzlug

[yuri]

Post by Roger Irwin
This cost will also be off-set as hardware vendors get paid for
installing trialware.

Post by Jethro Carr
Also, your pricing is out of date, Windows 7 OEM Home Premium
sells for $140+GST and a big vendor would be paying less I
expect....

Well, yes. If the trailware advertisers have paid more than the
manufacturers discounted Windows licence, then I guess I'm not really
paying the MS tax, am I?

The advertisers, whose products I won't buy, have paid for the MS OS
that I won't use, and I have the hardware in my hot little hands for
the price of the hardware.

The only losers in this scenario are the advertisers who have paid for
ads that are never going to be seen on this particular laptop, because
the harddisk is going to be wiped.

Julia recently bought an Acer eMachine laptop for $800.
Everything works with Linux Mint, including the WiFi.

In her case we kept a muchly shrunk windows partition in case she gets
some online work that requires windows.

Yuri

_______________________________________________
NZLUG mailing list ***@linux.net.nz
http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nzlug

[cr]

Post by yuri

Post by Roger Irwin
This cost will also be off-set as hardware vendors get paid for
installing trialware.

Post by Jethro Carr
Also, your pricing is out of date, Windows 7 OEM Home Premium
sells for $140+GST and a big vendor would be paying less I
expect....

Well, yes. If the trailware advertisers have paid more than the
manufacturers discounted Windows licence, then I guess I'm not really
paying the MS tax, am I?
The advertisers, whose products I won't buy, have paid for the MS OS
that I won't use, and I have the hardware in my hot little hands for
the price of the hardware.

Now that sounds quite satisfying. The idea that Norton might have paid to
subsidise my Linuxbox is so good it has to be true :)

Post by yuri
The only losers in this scenario are the advertisers who have paid for
ads that are never going to be seen on this particular laptop, because
the harddisk is going to be wiped.
Julia recently bought an Acer eMachine laptop for $800.
Everything works with Linux Mint, including the WiFi.
In her case we kept a muchly shrunk windows partition in case she gets
some online work that requires windows.
Yuri

I seem to recall buyers paying quite significant premiums to 'downgrade' to XP
from Vista or Windoze 7. Since MS seem to be doing their best to drive
away users with the horrible cryptic obscure mess that is W7, and no longer
selling XP which was the nearest they ever got to a useable system, maybe
Linux will get a big boost from pissed-off Windoze user.

(Still using XP at work. Even in its crippled-by-IT state, it's still twice
as useable as the W7 mess on a new laptop I had to use recently. Quite
seriously, after an hour of trying to make W7 work, I was just sooo
frustrated and tempted to wipe the hard drive and put Debian on it).

cr





_______________________________________________
NZLUG mailing list ***@linux.net.nz
http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nzlug

[yuri]

Since MS seem to be doing their best to drive away users with the
horrible cryptic obscure mess that is W7, and no longer selling XP
which was the nearest they ever got to a useable system, maybe
Linux will get a big boost from pissed-off Windoze user.

With this latest combination of fast new computer and very well
polished linux distro Julia is most content.
She's happy creating ESOL teaching resources in Scribus and emailing
the resulting PDFs to her students in Japan, whom she then teaches
using Skype.
Skype still works fine on Linux, despite being bought out by Microsoft.

I don't think she ever boots into the Windows partition, even though I
showed her how to select Windows from the boot menu.

The fact that a non-techie is choosing to boot Linux when Windows is
still available should silence the cries that Linux is only for geeks
who know how to use the command line.

(Still using XP at work.   Even in its crippled-by-IT state, it's still twice
as useable as the W7 mess on a new laptop I had to use recently.
Quite seriously, after an hour of trying to make W7 work, I was just
sooo frustrated and tempted to wipe the hard drive and put Debian on
it).

The only reason I can think of to keep Windows is to run legacy
Windows-only apps that are too hard to run on Wine or a VM, and for
which no suitable Linux alternative exists.
If it was a borrowed laptop, I would just run Linux off a LiveCD or
LiveUSBdrive.

Yuri

_______________________________________________
NZLUG mailing list ***@linux.net.nz
http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nzlug

[Volker Kuhlmann]

Post by yuri

Post by cr
which was the nearest they ever got to a useable system, maybe
Linux will get a big boost from pissed-off Windoze user.

I doubt it. There are countless dozers who don't like their system, but
they can still run it better then anything else they never learnt, and
cows will come home before they move. Hot air, no action. Plus it's not
unknown for "Linux" to put serious effort into driving users away. Dare
I say unity (or was it gnome 3?)...

Post by yuri
If it was a borrowed laptop, I would just run Linux off a LiveCD or
LiveUSBdrive.

Borrowed from where? How long?
dd the disk image to a safe place. Wipe. Have fun. Before returning, dd
the disk image back...

Volker

[cr]

Post by Volker Kuhlmann

Post by yuri

Post by cr
which was the nearest they ever got to a useable system, maybe
Linux will get a big boost from pissed-off Windoze user.

I doubt it. There are countless dozers who don't like their system, but
they can still run it better then anything else they never learnt, and
cows will come home before they move. Hot air, no action.

Yeah, but the point is this, that many of those people are used to XP. And
Gnome is a lot more like XP than Windoze7 is.

Post by Volker Kuhlmann
Plus it's not
unknown for "Linux" to put serious effort into driving users away. Dare
I say unity (or was it gnome 3?)...

Post by yuri
If it was a borrowed laptop, I would just run Linux off a LiveCD or
LiveUSBdrive.

Borrowed from where? How long?
dd the disk image to a safe place. Wipe. Have fun. Before returning, dd
the disk image back...

It's a laptop I bought for my father. He used to use** XP on his desktop at
home. When he went into an old folks home, I got him the laptop (a compact
lightweight Toshiba) so he could continue to answer emails. Unfortunately
Win7 defeated him decisively. He just found it too difficult.
I just need to clean his stuff off so I can sell it.

(** For sufficiently small values of 'use')

As for my own laptops, I've got 3 Thinkpads, a A20M, a R40 and a R50, all dual
boot with XP that was on them when I got them and Debian. I don't let them
near the 'net when XP is running 'cos I can't restore it if it gets a virus.

The R40 I made the mistake of putting casino games on the Windows partition so
now it's my wife's and I'm not allowed near it :) Fortunately the R50
came up on Trademe shortly after she hijacked the R40.

cr

_______________________________________________
NZLUG mailing list ***@linux.net.nz
http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nzlug

[Daniel Reurich]

Hi,

Thanks for your discussion on this. It's been all very helpful. I will
be sure to let you know if something does develop from this.

Regards,

[Ryan McCoskrie]

Post by Daniel Reurich
Hi,
Is their reasonable interest withing this community for portable devices
(tablets, netbooks, notebooks and laptops) without the usual bundled
proprietary software?
I ask because I am working on a potential arrangement whereby I will be
able to get some product into NZ without any bundled OS licenses, and
I'm trying to work out whether I can do so at prices and in volumes that
would make this a worthwhile.

There's actually a detail in the Windows EULA that says that you can get your
money back from the manufacturer. Only a few people have tried and fewer have
succeed. I've been thinking for a bit that we should all do it at once.
Everyone who has bought a computer and then immediately removed the OS
demand their money back from the manufacturer. Last time this was done was 11
years ago and the people involved went to MS. That was a stupid move, asking
the wholesaler for money back on a retail purchase is just not done. You gave
the money to the retailer, you take it back from the retailer.

[Nick Rout]

On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 9:40 AM, Ryan McCoskrie

Post by Ryan McCoskrie

Post by Daniel Reurich
Hi,
Is their reasonable interest withing this community for portable devices
(tablets, netbooks, notebooks and laptops) without the usual bundled
proprietary software?
I ask because I am working on a potential arrangement whereby I will be
able to get some product into NZ without any bundled OS licenses, and
I'm trying to work out whether I can do so at prices and in volumes that
would make this a worthwhile.

There's actually a detail in the Windows EULA that says that you can get your
money back from the manufacturer. Only a few people have tried and fewer have
succeed. I've been thinking for a bit that we should all do it at once.
Everyone who has bought a computer and then immediately removed the OS
demand their money back from the manufacturer. Last time this was done was 11
years ago and the people involved went to MS. That was a stupid move, asking
the wholesaler for money back on a retail purchase is just not done. You gave
the money to the retailer, you take it back from the retailer.

1. I believe the EULA may say something different now;

2. When it did allow for a refund, it said the refund would come from
MS so that's where people went.

_______________________________________________
NZLUG mailing list ***@linux.net.nz
http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nzlug

[Patrick Connolly]

Somewhere about Wed, 13-Jul-2011 at 09:40AM +1200 (give or take), Ryan McCoskrie wrote:

[...] That was a stupid move,
|> asking the wholesaler for money back on a retail purchase is just
|> not done. You gave the money to the retailer, you take it back from
|> the retailer.

That's not how cash back deals work. You pay money to the retailer
and get the refund from the manufacturer. I suppose the attraction to
the manufacturer is that they have the money from the retailer and get
an interest-free loan until the consumer gets round to getting the
refund. Plus there's always a chance that the consumer won't get it
together.

A somewhat different story, but it is an example of a retailing
practice where it IS done.
--
___ Patrick Connolly
{~._.~}
_( Y )_ Good judgment comes from experience
(:_~*~_:) Experience comes from bad judgment
(_)-(_)


_______________________________________________
NZLUG mailing list ***@linux.net.nz
http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nzlug

[Ryan McCoskrie]

Post by Patrick Connolly
[...] That was a stupid move,
|> asking the wholesaler for money back on a retail purchase is just
|> not done. You gave the money to the retailer, you take it back from
|> the retailer.
That's not how cash back deals work. You pay money to the retailer
and get the refund from the manufacturer. I suppose the attraction to
the manufacturer is that they have the money from the retailer and get
an interest-free loan until the consumer gets round to getting the
refund. Plus there's always a chance that the consumer won't get it
together.
A somewhat different story, but it is an example of a retailing
practice where it IS done.

Sorry. I got confused by how there is at least three levels (MS, manufacturer,
retailer) in this process. By retailer I meant manufacturer.

That's an awful lot of re-selling for something that is as substantial as a
funny look isn't it?